Your opinions on a EK 1. Kl. 1870 "Prinzengrösse"

[Klaus O.]

Dear Imperialites,

I just wanted to know your opinions on this cross. I have seen it while I was in Münich visiting an Auction House and I really like it. It is a "Reduktion" 35mm and it is marked on the reverse "LL". It has a needle pin placed horizontally.

Thank you very much in advance for your kind replies.

Ciao,

Claudio

[jani_tiainen]

Picture from reverse would help!

Good detailed picture from reverse would be essential before anything can be said for sure.

Jani

[PaulChep]

my opinion

I am not an expert, but the frame looks to bright and shiney for me.

[Doug See]

I'd like to see the reverse, but the core detail has all the attributes of a "real" one (1870-1900). The crown has that nice 3-dimensional relief, with the broad oval opening showing the crown interior. Needle pins were used on many prinzens. I'd give it a thumbs up, at least until I saw the reverse.

Anyone have a reference book handy? Is LL a known maker of 1870's, either issue or later remakes? Seems to me it is. (I don't have access to my books today)

[stogieman]

Well....

I don't like the shiny frame.
I don't like the "chalky" look to the paint.
I don't like the detail (sorry, I disagree with you Doug)
I don't like the core.
This should be what it is. A very expensive, extremely well made, top-quality private-purchase piece. It just doesn't 'feel" pre-1900 to me.

[Klaus O.]

Thanks for your kind replies. I can't post the pic of the reverse because the Auction House told me that they have already sold it.

I saw in person and I must tell that I was quite impressed by its quality. On the other hand I don't think too, that this is a pre-1900 piece, rather a late private purchase. In any case such medals "Prinzengrösse" were all privately purchased, weren't they? Only aristocrats or wealthy people did buy such pretty small things...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Doug See]

Originally posted by Doug See
Anyone have a reference book handy? Is LL a known maker of 1870's, either issue or later remakes? Seems to me it is. (I don't have access to my books today)

Rick,
1) You're probably right about it being post-1900. That's why I mentioned the LL maker--I think they made later remakes.
2) Compared to the repros I've seen recently, this core detail is very nice. The crown is done right, although I agree it is not the best 1870 I've seen.
3) I think we need to remember that we are looking at an underexposed photo of a prinzen, and not a full sized one, and should make accomodations for the reduced detail and somewhat altered frame shape that are normal for small sized medals. Proportions and details on prinzens always appear a bit different than thier full sized counterparts.
4) I've seen several original crosses with "matte" finishes to the cores. I suppose this matte paint would chalk the way other paints do over the years if not kept well.
5) I don't like the shiny frame, either. I think the guy who polished it a couple of years ago made a mistake.
Either way, I think it's a nice quality piece, and not a modern repro. Just my opinion.

[stogieman]

For Doug & all

Hi Doug, I guess it's possible it's a much later, post-1900 production. I try to stick to the period items (just my thing, not meant as a commentary on anyone, anything!). I've had 3 P-G 1870 EK 2s and the core detail was outrageously good and crisp. I recently sold my 1914 P-G EK1 (cased, ex-Niemann) to Paul and I think he'd agree with me that even the core detail on that cross is much, much better than the one in Claudio's picture.... So, when was it made? For me, when I get this far into trying to figure that out on a piece like this, it's time for me to walk away. I'd rather dish out more bucks and get one right one, than one I have to explain. Again, just one of my hang-ups.

[Doug See]

Consider this.....

If you think about it, there may have been reason to make 1870 replacement crosses up through the 1940's. I have no statistics on Franco-Prussian War veterans, but I believe the last U.S. Civil War Gettysburg battle veteran passed away in 1958. Being an average 5 to 10 years younger, it is probable that German 1870 veterans survived well into the 1940's. I would bet that a couple of jewelers maintained an inventory of 1870 crosses up into those decades for replacement gifts, etc.

[Dez H]

Doug has raised an interesting point that I would like to carry one step further, not to sidetrack from the original post but to highlight something quite interesting:

Taken from the book Hitler's Wars, David Irving Millennium Edition, page 201:

On April 20, 1939, he reach that plateau in life; fifty. Seldom had the world seen such a vulgar display of muscle as Nazi Germany staged to celebrate the Fuhrer’s birthday, with 1,600 Party notables crowding into the Mosaic Hall at one moment, and the Wearers of the Blood Insignia – veterans of the 1923 putsch attempt – milling around in the Marble Gallery at another.
While bands played the Badenweiler March that evening, in the mistaken belief that it was his favourite tune, Hitler drove with Speer along the fine new East-West boulevard and opened it as fireworks embroidered a huge image of the swastika flag in the sky. At one vantage point were mustered the surviving ex-solders of Germany’s nineteenth-century wars – survivors of a generations who had marched vainly toward that dreamland that was ‘now in sight.’

Were restrikes produced of the 1870 Iron Crosses, as there were veterans there must have been a need, small perhaps but still a need for these pieces. I did read somewhere that it was quite popular even patriotic for shop and bank fronts to display a set of Iron Crosses.


Now getting back to the original topic at hand, I personally agree with Rick, piece is non-standard so I would steer well clear of it.