Question on Prussian Red Eagle Order II Class

[W McSwiggan]

While reading my copy of "Prussia: Award Documents and Authorization Certificates 1793-1972" by Dietmar Raksch I noted that there were separate award documents for the Red Eagle Order Second Class & it’s affiliated breast star. Am I correct in interpreting this as meaning that the star was a separate grade of the order – in other words, one could/would be awarded the second class without star and then later receive the star for continued merit? Prior to this I assumed that the general “pecking order” was 4th class, 4th class with crown, 3rd class, 3rd class with crown, 2nd Class, second class with crown, 1st class, 1st class with crown, grand gross. I believe, from reading the subject reference that the 1st class did automatically include the breast star but now it appears that the 2nd class star was another “rung in the ladder”. I further suspect that the 2nd class and star could be awarded together by exception as special recognition versus a normal progression of 2nd class – 2nd class breast star – 2nd class with crown. Am I close to right here????

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Rick Research]

Yup.

"Routine" would have been:

4th

3rd on Bow (REPLACING a 4th without crown. Worn WITH a 4th with Crown)

2nd with Oakleaves (REPLACING a 3rd on Bow. If either a 4th or a 3rd with Crown was held, that could continue being worn)

1st (which was a star, with sash badge) etc

The crowns were second awards in almost all cases, and holders of a 4th or 3rd with Crown did NOT have to give it up on moving up the normal ladder, but could continue wearing those forever.

The Stars to the 2nd Class Red Eagle (and Crown Order) were, in effect, "crowns," though no 2nd Class could continue being worn after a 1st and up was given.

Awards COULD be given as initial awards with a crown, though unusual. same with the 2nd class grades-- though that was more normal for a NON-Prussian (especially one who didn't already have any grade of either Order).

Your run of the mill circa 1910 "new" Generalmajor had a Prussian Crown Order 2nd Class and a Red Eagle 3rd with Bow. After a couple of years, usually on promotion to Generalleutnant, he'd move up to a Red Eagle 2nd with Oakleaves (these oakleaves serving as "bow"). If lucky enough to make General der Whatever, he'd be in line for 1st Class decorations... so most didn't get a 2nd Class star at all-- just like most officers never had a crown to their Red Eagles 4 or 3.

[Rick Research]

And then there were things like THIS!

[Rick Research]

which came with one of these

[Rick Research]

But wait!!! THOSE don't make a set!!!


That's right--- the Prussian Order of the Black Eagle Star is being worn with its correct sash...

which leaves the SASH badge for the Red Eagle Order-Grand Cross with Swords On Ring (every grade up had these for this guy because he held a 4th with Swords, as seen above), Oakleaves, and Crown (huff, puff!)... bumped to being worn around the NECK, and no place to fit another Belly Burst.

Clank, clank!!!

[W McSwiggan]

Thank You Master

Please accept the appreciation of this humble grasshopper...

But tell me, oh great one, didn't all that hardware create a hardship at happy hour?

Think of all that horribly chipped enamel

Seriously - thanks for the explanation - picked up an extra there - swords-am-ring applied to ANY earlier swords award - not just the immediate predecessor! The light - I see a faint light!!!!

[W McSwiggan]

Oh Oh!

More comfusion has just set in...

Your first image shows the REO-GC w/ Crown, oak leaves swords-am-ring & crown at the throat but... what looks like a REO4 w/ swords on the medal bar! Was he being naughty? Your statement (which was my understanding as well) was that unless "crowned", lower grades were to be removed upon award of a higher grade. I note that the GC is w/o swords & the 4th is with - is that another exception???

[Rick Research]

Ah yes, let the Prussian Madness begin! A junior Red Eagle grade with Swords was worn forever with "Swords on Ring" of NON Swords higher awards. IF (and these are REAL rare) a higher grade ALSO with Swords was granted, then the lower one was replaced, so that say

a Red Eagle 4X holder who got a Red Eagle 3X... wore: a Red Eagle 3X with Swords on Ring and Bow.

Mess those up with the usual peacetime versions... and you have to go look at Andreas Schulze-Ising's site article on Red eagle Typology or go totally crackers. (Peacetime and with Swords could be worn together....)

Here's our fellow above: Red Eagle 4X on medal bar from 1866, but Supreme Grand Googah around the neck, as moved up peacetime grades:

[Rick Research]

Of course, things were MUCH simpler for your plain, ordinary, regimental Majors--

here is the Usual Combination after 25-30 years of peacetime service.

No thorny weird regulations problems here!

[W McSwiggan]

Ah Ha!

So....

Generalmajor Schmuck, recipient of:

REO4 w/ Crown
REO3 w/ bow & Swords
REO2 with Oakleaves and Swords-on-Ring

could wear all three at the same time!!!

[Rick Research]

Yeah... but he'd be REAL easy to spot in a Rank List because mercifully so few DID!