PlM Godet or Not

[Brian S]

Steve, you're goading me. No. It's not for me to prove it's a fake. You're way out of line. It's up to Andreas to prove it's real. You'll find plenty of threads where people tell you their stuff 'feels' right. So they 'feel' it's good, it's good. If that works for you, so be it. Have a nice day Steve.

[medalnet]

final comment from Medalnet on this Topic

To hopefully bring this one to an end I like to point out 2 more details:


a) The change of the size of the center of the bronze gilt and silver gilt PlM was questioned. Thanks to the Jacobs PlM (did they really obtain the PlM with crown in 1967 or just the crown? As far as I know only the crown was obtained not the PlM. This was "common" practice for this) as well as the image of the piece Detlev sold some years back we have two other pieces with wide center.

1) Detlev's piece has all characteristics of the Godet piece, and is marked as such with the 900 Silver stamped certainly not used before 1918. Yet it does have the wide center !!! It also has the detailing of the letters.

2) Jacob's PlM resembles the Schickle catalogue piece, yet the center is wider. Also it does not have the detailed lettering. The Schickle catalogue does not show the picture in its 1940 cataolgue, but in the 1941 edition. I do not think we can gather clues of whether this one was actually made in 1941, 1918 or maybe 1930, but certainly before 1941.

b) Does anybody of you know about those catalogues from before 1918. One could basically order to ones heart's contempt. Golden pieces, same in Silver gilt, bronze gilt, with special polish etc. whatever ones budget could afford. I am sure that this would explain some other question raised here.

Comparing all pictures shown here clearly demonstrates the linkage and lineage between all of them. We can see most characteristics like the eagles, middle portion, hand detailing of letters etc in some way in those pieces shown here.

Also, keep in mind the bronze gilt piece I have in my humble collection is HOLLOW made. Anybody who understands the slightest bid on jewelry techniques does know what that means. Take the timeframe 1918 to 1945 in consideration and understand the political situation in Germany it becomes clear whether this pieces was made right after 1918 or more towards the III. Reich period.

Besides, why and how could any company afford to create new tooling during the depression in Germany after 1918?

Keep also in mind that those dies were used with pressure ratings of more then 20 tons. Godet's dies must have been around at least since the 1870s. Does anybody wonder about refurbishing - especially since Godet seem to have been supplier of choice in 1918?

It is indeed to bad that order decorations and medals while discussing Weimar and privately purchased pieces do not come with their original invoices attached to them. But that is what collecting or studying antiques is always about. The only way to identify and categorize furniture, silverwork, paintings etc and, yes, medals and decorations is the science of comparing.

And yes, this is as good as it gets.

[GFM]

While I'm not a PLM collector or afficianado, I can add one comment to take into consideration regarding catalogs, this from the standpoint of my having worked in the catalog creative development industry.

In the pre-computer days there was a lot of time and effort put into catalogs well in advance so that they could be timed for when product would be available in the marketplace. Creative development, writing and layout of all the pages and photography of the merchandise was a long, drawn out process (and still can be at times, even with the time saving aspects of computers). As a result, prototypes of product were often used as placeholders or visual representations of what would eventually be offered for sale as in many cases the actual product had not yet been completely developed or manufactured, and was thus not available for photography. This still goes on in the industry today, though with the advanced retouching software that exists sometimes the product you see in catalogs is completely virtual and did not even exist at the time the book was being put together.

My point here is that I would certainly not use any image from a catalog as the all encompassing, definitive example of anything as in many cases these images are not always truly representative of what is finally manufactured. Its a real bother for the seller as it can affect returns if there is too much variance between the catalog picture and the final item that is produced.

I am not trying to side with anyone in this discussion, just bringing up a point that many may not be aware of and throwing it out there to contemplate.

[Brian S]

Thank you Andreas for wanting to bring it to an end with your comments...

Until a genuine Godet is matched with exact die flaws of the original, this is just something that may be or might not be of post 1918 to 1945 era.

As for similar characteristics, every collector who has a zeppelin badge has made the same arguement... Everyone wants to believe and that's fine, but I'm a pureist and no, close based on similarities is the definition of a fake, not the proof of a genuine PlM.

I'm not questioning Detlev's or anyone else's PlMs here Andreas, I'm trying to match yours to a known provenanced piece from Weimar period off the Godet dies as you claim. If it's off the Godet dies match the exact die characteristics of which there would be traces to match. It's really that simple.

[medalnet]

...

[Brian S]

It is really not that simple. But I do not see any reason to discuss this any further.

It's amazingly simple. But first of all Andreas, you cannot close a thread...

But back to simple. Get a wartime Godet. Photograph it forwards and backwards. Get yours, match exact die flaws.

Reconditioned dies are not digging out the material of the die they are simply reconditioned or enhanced. It would be tragic for your cross if the die were so reconditioned you couldn't make a match.

But please, you do not need to discuss this any further Andreas. But maybe someone who wants proof this is wartime, will take it the next step and figure it out.

Anyone out there with a Godet wartime PlM they can get "Dietrich Like" photos of it?

[medalnet]

It is really not that simple. But I do not see any reason to discuss this any further.

Those that are open to scientific discussions may have already made up their mind, those that do not can not be helped.

[Brian S]

Those that are open to scientific discussions may have already made up their mind, those that do not can not be helped.

An opinion is not "science". I'm looking for a factual discussion based on high res closeups. Scientific . Since when was an opinion based on blurry photos scientific. I think it's sad you attempt to dismiss this so easily Andreas. Why do you want everyone to just walk away from this? You brought this into the collecting community as a Godet PlM. You have a web site and you present yourself as an expert. So please, let's see an expert's discussion supported by facts not opinion about "characteristics of an original PlM." Characteristics are exactly what fakes attempt to incorporate into their design. Let's see the facts Andreas, do you have them?

It is really not that simple. But I do not see any reason to discuss this any further.

Then stop making posts and let's see some closeup comparisons between a Godet and your PlM to see if what you are saying is a "fact" is a fact.

Why don't you want to see an examination of this issue?

[medalnet]

You brought this into the collecting community as a Godet PlM.

It is this statement that goes against everything said in this thread.

Here again is the whole auction text:

The Prussian Order
Pour le Mérite
For auction: a genuine 1920<SUP>th</SUP> to 1940<SUP>th</SUP> bronze gilt Pour le Mérite. Besides two high resolution pictures I will also list a few links to pages discussing the 1920<SUP>th</SUP> era and Godet made Pour le Mérites.
It is common knowledge today that the WWI Pour le Mérites, also know as "Blue Max", came from only 3 Prussian order and decoration manufacturer:
a) Jean Godet & Söhne ("J G u S" or "J G & S" marking)
b) Gebr. Friedländer ("FR" marking)
c) Joh. Wagner ("W" marking) (also court jeweler to the Prussian Kings)
Pieces made from gilt silver required the 938 silver content mark as well. Due to only those few hundred Silver gilt ones awarded between 1916-1918 just two coining tools were created. The first one owned and operated by Jean Godet the second by Joh. Wagner.
Wagner started already during the last years of WWI to sell raw coined Pour le Mérite bodies to his competitor Gebr. Friedländer. Intensive studies have shown that the design and coinage is identical in-between those two manufacturers.
The "after war years" did not create much use for wearing medals and order decorations. The Weimar Republic as a matter of fact tried to get away from using orders and decorations all together. Yet the change of the political climate in 1934 enabled German pride and a need to wear those decorations received for bravery during WWI.
Several firms like Meybauer, Schickle and Sedlazek in Berlin started selling orders and decorations again. Certainly the number of Pour le Mérites looked for was not very big. Those specialty dealers in consequence made use of those jewelers formerly known to be manufacturing Pour le Mérites before 1918.
You may have seen those old Meybauer or Otto Schickle catalogues featuring all kind of orders and decorations. Particularily the Schickle firm is proven to have used the Godet type Pour le Mérite for their offerings. It is pictured in its official sale catalogue.

You may read more about this topic on the following two web pages:
a) www.medalnet.net: http://www.medalnet.net/Godet_Pour_le_Merite.htm
b) http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/ http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97292
Those web pages feature several more discussions and fact findings on this very interesting topics.
In any case here it is:
the piece comes for the Godet dies enameled and finished and was sold by one of the companies mentioned above after WWI into the 1940<SUP>th</SUP>.
The Pour le Mérite is made from gilt bronze in the hollow constructed fashion Godet was known for even far before World War I. Excellent marksmanship on this full size original 1920<SUP>th</SUP> "Blue Max". The lettering - Godet typical - is hand detailed. Only the tail feathers will give away its after war creation.

It says that it comes from the Godet dies, yet you need to keep in mind that those seem to have been altered. The pictures sequence and here especially the piece offered by Detlev Nienmann with the wide center give enough clues to support this theory.

You may claim now that it did not specificaly stated that in the text, but that is why I added those links to the discusiion forums.

I hope you won't reply to this agani with the statement: This is not identical, because that is indeed true, thay are not identical and never will be because they can not be identical.

That would go against the principal of refurbishing. And again, who would know today how badly worn those toolings were, to what extend those had to be fixed. I do not know what your background is, but maybe you should talk to sombody with experience in toolings and metal stamping.

[Brian S]

OK Andreas. Let's follow your logic.

What I know:
Once there was a Godet PlM. Then there was a Godet refurbishing and that PlM is identifiable to the pre-refurbishing PlM by distinguishing characteristics of the die.

What you want me to believe:
Then were was a refurbishing. The Godet PlM that comes from this die is different in size at the middle, there are no identifiable characteristics back to the original. But, they have "characteristics" of the original, so they must be the original.

What I did NOT say:-I did not say they must be identical. You continue to mis-state and mis-quote, an obvious tactic that forces me back to repeat myself over and again so your comments do not lay here as the last words putting the wrong words in my mouth.

What I DID say: The PlMs if both from the Godet dies, must share some perfect die characteristics from "refurbishing" to refurbishing, or, it is impossible to state they DID come from the same die originally. I do understand the concept of die refurbishing but taking two entirely different PlMs and saying they are original and from the same die with no proof, is wrong...

What I think:
Not...without proof.

[medalnet]

What I did NOT say:-I did not say they must be identical. You continue to mis-state and mis-quote, an obvious tactic that forces me back to repeat myself over and again so your comments do not lay here as the last words putting the wrong words in my mouth.

OK:

a)

Evidence: In Post #1 above, I show a photo from the Otto Schickle catlogue with a genuine PlM by Godet. Next to it I show Andreas' PlM.

Arguement: They do NOT match.

Proof: Therefore, the PlM posted by Andreas on eBay is NOT a genuine PlM by Godet.

My problem with all of this was Andreas standing firm in his eBay ad that this IS A GODET PlM. Not that it COULD BE a PlM of between war origin. He chose to make the statement that it comes from the Godet dies. It clearly does NOT.

b)

Steve, I will NOT prove a negative to you and you did not demonstrate that the PlM that Andreas says is a Godet PlM is a Godet PlM. It shares characteristics but not ALL characteristics. It MUST share ALL characteristics of a Godet PlM to have come from the same die.

c)

A genuine piece is characterized by its absolute match to a known piece or photo of a piece by die flaws and uncopiable minute details.

Not overall characteristics. Until you match a piece to an original, not a brother from another mother, you do not have a genuine unquestioned piece.

and so on....


and finally:

Someone will have to show me a Godet example from an entirely different set of dies from between the wars provenanced to a recipient.

...well, here it is:

Pictured in reply #11. There is the wide center, clearly a Godet piece.

[Brian S]

This is NOT a closeup side by side comparison...

This is an off angle photo of a PlM.

This proves nothing Andreas, other than you have a nice picture of a PlM with a certificate in the back that itself is unreadable...

If it's real, what's the provenance of this one? It's a picture from somewhere of whose PlM? If you get us to believe this one is real, and I'm not saying it isn't but this photo doesn't tell me much, let's see head on photos of this one and yours.

Lots of real estate in your posts but no attention to the effort to match yours to a provenanced PlM Andreas.

[Brian S]

Andreas, I have an interest in PlMs. I have no interest in how much money you make on this one or any one. I only am interested in what is real and proven, that's it. Given my grandfather, whom you chose to disrespect, I could easily have come onto this forum with tales of 'wear' PlMs. I did not, and I do not have any wear PlMs from the Weimar period. But I could have made up stories and profited, nicht? Given that my grandfather wore this all the time I am truely amazed it did not break. I know the fragility of these. Were I him I would have bought a wear PlM to keep my awarded piece safe and sound and not worry so much about the 1930's piece. But he did not and was very careful and now a safety deposit box keeps it safe for another several years. All I care about is what is real.

I tire of this endless banter going nowhere. If no one has a Godet PlM to show with die flaws, then that's it for me. A shame the hobby doesn't really learn anything conclusively.

We have your PlM with "characteristics" of a Godet PlM. Also, the defininition of a reproduction.

[medalnet]

The Plm above is the one. I do not think that it does matter whether the shot is plan or not. It shows the characteristics clear enough.

Maybe some other member has a photoshop program to distort the image?

The link to the piece was done in reply #11. Please read the replies carfully.

Anyway, Brian, I guess this is really not going anywhere.

Let me say thanks to all those WAF members and non-members that have emailed me with a lot of support in regards to this and the previous thread. I hope this was not getting to much out of hand.

[Brian S]

And let me thank all the WAF members who have emailed me, sent me letters, cards and well wishes in my support.

Keep those cards and letters coming in folks and just remember...

"Characteristics are found on all fakes, the better the fake, the better the characteristics. Such is the nature of fakes."

Thank you for your support.