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**Biro** · 10-23-2006, 08:31 AM

Here's an 18mm version I have... with the correct silver thread ribbon.

As an aside - the 'best quality' button illustrated earlier in this thread does not have correct miniature PLM ribbon.

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miniature compilation 1.jpg (116.7 KB, 213 views)

**Stephen Previtera** · 10-23-2006, 09:44 AM

loops vs. no loops

Hey Biro,
Nice photo of the chain. You are showing the 15mm variety, not the 9mm stick pin type in this photo. But your point is well taken. Godet did however omit the pie-wedge from minis when the device wa attached directly to the button. In the hanging varieties. like von Etzel's and others (as in your chain example) the pie-wedge was included. The 9mm should have a pie wedge if manufactured originally for the purposes of hanging. However, since this is a stick pin piece, with the pin attached directly to the reverse, no pie-wedge. What I cannot figure out about Steve's piece is why it matches an older type PLM mini for stick pin but then has this unsual loop attached to the top. That does concern me. but the rest does match the 9mm stick pin. So the question begs to be answered, did someone come along and add the loop to a period piece or did someone remanufacture the pieces with loops. Either way, I think Steve can be happy with the mini as it represents accurately the 9mm variety even if made after the 1940s.
SP

**Stephen Previtera** · 10-23-2006, 09:53 AM

Just came back and noticed Biro's 100% Godet piece. Brilliant. Perfect. Bravo. This exact cross (I call it the 15 -18mm variety) was utilized without a pie-wedge when attached directly (not hangling) from the buttonier.
SP

**Marc Garlasco** · 10-23-2006, 12:03 PM

Awesome.

I am SO out of my league!
Marc

**regular122** · 10-23-2006, 03:17 PM

Greg, Biro and Stephen,

Thanks so much for the additional info, examples and the catalogue pages. Fantastic.

@ Biro, yes I noticed the EK type ribbon myself on the button example vice the silver thread, but, it still looks legit. As these were all made privately, unless it is a Godet mini, it is tough to establish norms, but your point on the Meybauer is well taken as the face of a Meybauer on the big PlMs is identical to the Godet (see mine in post #1). That may indeed rule out Meybauer.

@ Stephen. Good points on the pie wedge. Thanks for your continued expertise.

I guess the question now is: Were the stick pins made prior to 1945? If so, who made them? and, Is it possible that this same maker made these 9mm version minis?

Thanks to all. Steve

**regular122** · 10-23-2006, 03:52 PM

On the subject of Godet minis and minis named to estates, I thought this cased Godet mini is worth posting. It belonged to Alfred Vollard-Bockelburg. It was posted on an auction site.

http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GST403#bigPic

Provides yet another example and what an authentic Godet case looks like. But it is the standard 15.5mm Godet example vice a 9mm. But as this thread can serve all discussions on the PlM mini, it is as about as beautiful as one could find. Steve

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vBockelberg.jpg (39.6 KB, 195 views)

**Les** · 10-25-2006, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by regular122 View Post

I guess the question now is: Were the stick pins made prior to 1945? If so, who made them? and, Is it possible that this same maker made these 9mm version minis?

Thanks to all. Steve

Steve,

The wearing of many different types of medals as minis on stickpins appears to have been relatively common, and there are all sorts of genuine pre-1945 (and post 1945) examples. There are also many fake stickpin devices on the market....and there are some things to look for.

Typically, a German made stickpin was a twisted mid section on the pin that resembles a cork-screw. The twist is a simple device to help the pin grasp or hold cloth. A smooth pin can, and does pull out easily enough that it can be inadvertantly lost.

The presence of absence of a "twist" doesn't make a stickpin real or bad, but personally, I prefer those with one rather than without a twist. There is also the way the device is attached to the pin (or is it the other way around?).

I''d suggest handling a few very ordinary stickpings for single devices (i.e., those with an EK, Wound badge, etc), and then getting a feel for how they were made and construction details.

Then, and only then, venture into looking the -reputed- mini/stickpin "PLM" variants. Without a solid provenance and as part of a documented group (rather than being part of an "old collection", I'd be inclined to doubt the authenticity of any reputed "PLM" -stickpin-.

The stickpin in SP's book doesn't look like the typical Imperial stickpins (I can't see any twist in the pin; the overall size/proportions don't seem quite right). Without a rock solid provenance (and preferably one that comes with an old known grouping of items belonging to one known individual PlM recipient, it's not one I'd bet the "ranch" on.

Les

**Stephen Previtera** · 10-25-2006, 02:44 PM

Les,
Can you show us some typical stickpins you would approve of? I assume you have some visual examples of which you speak. A twist to the center of a stick pin is common to repros as well and is a good sucker punch for beginning collectors, a perfect example being the famous enameled 1939 "Knight's Cross" stickpin. Remember. PLM winners wore these devices into the 1970s, Pilot Arthur Laumann being of of them.
SP

**Les** · 10-27-2006, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Stephen Previtera View Post

Les,
Can you show us some typical stickpins you would approve of? I assume you have some visual examples of which you speak. A twist to the center of a stick pin is common to repros as well and is a good sucker punch for beginning collectors, a perfect example being the famous enameled 1939 "Knight's Cross" stickpin. Remember. PLM winners wore these devices into the 1970s, Pilot Arthur Laumann being of of them.
SP

Steve,

You're quite correct that the twist is not in and of itself proof that any stickpin is real, but it's one of many factors that taken in conjunction with other elements that add up to a larger picture that can be used towards making what often amounts to a personal judgement if a particular piece is good or bad. This is particularly the case when dealing with very rare types (of anything) that may very well be one of a kind items.

The example in your book appears without any provenance given. The only details mentioned are size and weight, along with a photo showing it's actual size and a close up.

If it's known to have been owned (and worn) by an actual PlM recipient, then that's grounds for accepting it as authentic. If it's undocumented, or comes with an "aunt Jane" story akin to saying it came out of someone's attic or an "old collection"....then that's -no- proof that it's genuine.

So in answer to your question, show me a stickpin PlM that's known to have been owned by a PlM recipient, and it has a chain of custody to go along with it, I'll accept it as genuine.

Les

**Stephen Previtera** · 10-27-2006, 08:10 PM

Here's my take on it. I will say no more on the matter.
If any of you come across a stick pin that matches the one on page 317 of Prussian Blue, step around Les, who may be in front of you tracing the provenance of the piece, and buy it.
Point number two.
If you've found a bag of these stick pins laying around in the last, say, twenty-five years, then let us know, the piece would then be a repro. I have only seen one in my life, that on page 317. You'd think the fakers would have pumped out at least five or six.
Point three.
The piece has been in a collection with multiple named full-sized and mini PLMs for a very long time. This item would be the least expensive cast-off of the lot. But since I will be in Europe next week I will inquire further about its heritage.
Point Four.
If Marshall's piece shown at the top of this thread does not have provenance, well, don't bet the ranch, farm, mobile home, or sally-jane's in the attic's story or whatever other worn-out cliche you can think of on it.
Point Five.
Les, what percentage of pieces in your collection have provenance
Point Six.
Folks, The sitck pin was a privately purchased item. It could have come from behind a jeweler's counter, so the fact that it does not have a name means just that.
Point Seven
If ninety-eight percent of the pieces shown on all the forum's I've ever visited in my life show pieces that have no provenance then don't bet the, well, you choice the real estate. (In case I wouldn't)
Point Eight.
The pieces that started this thread are oddball pieces and more than one have shown up as of late. The loop does not make much sense to me. I'm putting Les on the case. Some original research on the matter would be welcomed. Les is good at that. I've done my part, some 400plus pages, looking forward to you doing yours.
Point Nine.
I have never owned a PLM stick pin.
Point Ten.
I am off to Europe. Let's see what I can find!
SP

**Brian S** · 10-28-2006, 11:57 AM

The piece on 317 looks entirely believable and one of the chief reasons is its obvious natural age, the attachment of the pin to the piece and its simplicity.

Private purchase as noted just above is the tell-all to the pieces. There were no official offices to go through to get permission, nothing. They were as they were as they went from one side of the counter to the other.

So what to look for? Provenance of course, firstly. But, that is getting a tad more difficult, nicht?

Then common sense. I really look for age. The "it's been in a bag for 75 years" is really not for me.

We all want whatevere we want and believe in whatever we want but ulitimately it's either up to you to run with the herd or be content that you have the piece in hand and believe in it.

The original piece posted looks amazing in detail. That's a great thing and a bad thing without provenance... To me... I personally could put my faith into the piece on page 317 than before the one at the top. But that doesn't make the one at top any less real. I like it, I'm just conflicted. The one on 317 has no problems for me. PlM winners were rare in any town in Germany in the 20's and 30's. And revered. A birthday and a presentation to the PlM winners in some small form was common. Not difficult to imagine a gift crafted by the local jeweler. The one at top, not a 'one off' crafted gift.

**Brian S** · 10-28-2006, 12:00 PM

Stephen, although my grandfather's pieces will lay in a safe deposit box for another 30 years as they did from the fifties to just recently, they will remain on public display here thanks to the Internet but safe from hands and sunlight...

Here's the mini with links to the others; http://www.vonetzel.com/award4.htm

**gregM** · 10-28-2006, 01:00 PM

Brian,
I never get tired of seeing that wonderful mini.

**Stephen Previtera** · 10-28-2006, 02:21 PM

I said I wasn't going to write another word but I lied.
Just to clear things up. My Point Four about Marshall's piece is tongue-in-cheek. It is a perfectly legit Godet piece. I was just razin you guys.
SP

**Les** · 10-28-2006, 02:58 PM

Steven,

I make a clear distinction between the mini types, and did so in my previous postings. Marshall's mini is not a stickpin, and is -not- the subject of the matter I was speaking about. There is a definite difference between the "Bandrollchen" type mini that features a ribbon box/miniature medal, and a "stickpin." My post clearly mentioned the term "stickpin" in conjunction with the term "PlM" so there should have been no confusion on that point. So....please don't confuse matters by referring to Marshall's Godet made Bandrollchen and stickpins in the same context.

Let's limit this to "stickpins" only, and not the minis with small ribbon bows, etc. Please don't mix matters up and try to blur one specific reference by invoking a broader range of referrences.

In one of your posts here, you referred to Laumann's stickpin PlM, and in your book you included photos of items that belonged to him...but no photo of the stickpin PlM that you referred to. If you saw his, or had information (from a photo perhaps?) why not include a photo of the actual item?

If you had access to an actual documented stickpin PlM why not use it? That would be preferrable rather than one with no known provenance other than "it comes from an old collection" which is a phrase many of us have heard at shows, along with "trust me" and the "check (cheque) is in the mail."

The usual method scientific and historical method is to start with what is known or can be demonstrated before dealing with the "unknown." In otherwords, use facts first, not conjecture to determine what is a real and genuine item rather than accepting a story that it came from such and such a place, at such a time.

Stating that Laumann had one, using photos of other items he owned, and then not showing his, and instead using an undocumented one....leads to the question of asking why you chose one method of presenting "information" over another.

Again, if you knew of Laumann having owned a -stickpin- either from having seen it as part of his personal affects, or in a photo, why not include it in your book? That would help -document- the legitamcy of the "stickpin" as a subtype, rather than using an undocumented example that requires people to buy into what may or may not be an Aunt Jane story of the type all of us have heard.

Regarding the Bandrollchen types....yes they do exist, and I've seen and handled several over the years. Marshall, Brian, and Ralph have posted photos of the ones they have, and each and every one of theirs is superb even if Marshall's doesn't have any documentation to go along with it.

Brian, "looking" old, or "looking right" is easily done with various artifical aging techniques. Many major museums have been taken in by seemingly old, "important" or supposedly valuable artworks that have the superficial apperance of age, look right stylistically, and to the eye look "right" but after examination using various lab techniques results have shown as the saying goes, all that glitters is not gold. That's why documented family groupings such as the one that belonged to your grandfather are important not only for what they are (and represent) but also as starting points for determining what is real...and what is "different."

Les

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