Bavarian pilot´s badge by Poellath

[Brian S]

Translator, it is not a German thing to jump in and out of different spellings of your name. However, you are very correct in that it would be an English translation or re-representation of the name. You are confusing proper names of persons with different methods of presenting words. That is just not correct in terms of an individual, a German, a person living in Germany. Works for me though for the foreigner who doesn't have the proper spelling in front of him or the correct spelling of the words.

[stogieman]

Okay, i think we're....

... not getting worked up. But I have definite opinions, that I'm basing my experience on. Now, I'm not buying the fact that because Frank has found Die Characteristics identical on both badges as some type of assurance that both badges are good AND that either spelling is fine.
I'm sorry, I don't accept this. Nor do I accept that a German company would feel the need to alter the spelling of their own name to further "Germanify" it, If you catch my drift!
Rather, In my opinion, this makes BOTH badge suspect as fakes.
Nor do I accept that ANY manufacturer here, or abroad, would SIMULTANEOUSLY use 2 different spellings of their own name.
You're grasping at straws, again, my opinion.
Frank, your photo (small) looks no more convincing to me regarding originality than the blow-up. I will not point out the specific details that are completely MISSING on the front of that badge, as we will not give the fakers any more detail than we have to. I would be happy to discuss these via private email, or private messages. Bottom line is this badge does not have on it what it should have!

[translator]

All in all, I think this has been an excellent thread - one of the very few to which (in my limited experience, although I've gone back and read many older threads) I can honestly accord that accolade. A lot of ground has been covered; the known facts have been separated from those which remain "unclear", people have been respectful of one another and, in the main, avoided the "animosity issue". I am happy to have been a part of it. VERY educational and non-stressful....

[stogieman]

One more thing

Frank, I don't think it appropriate to drag the Schott Badges into this. They ALL look that crappy for detail. The detail and design of these badges was tantamount to an art-form. I cannot accept that a nation as fiercely independant as the Bavarians (remember of ALL German states, kingdoms and duchies ONLY the Bavarians and Saxons would wear their home-states award in front of any Prussian award. I stand by statement that these badges are not originals. No matter which way you spell the name!

[Brian S]

I agree to some extent that this in my mind proves the Karl badges are suspect. But if you take anything from this thread, take the fact that you do not change the spelling of your name. If a normal thing today, I assure you, not a normal thing in pre-1939 Germany/Austria. You cannot apply what you have learned how to re-type words or even names to assume a person in the every day events of his life changed his name spelling for any reason. I think in summation it spells a heavier cloud of doubt on the Karl badges after the assertion that the two badges come from the same die. But, that Carl made badges during this period of time, why doubt that? Quality is great and as pointed out do not have to have the same level of detail as the Juncker badge (war time issue Juncker badges). But, in their day and time, these were the highest expression of art!

[translator]

Brians,

If you possess a major (over my college minor) in German, or are an actual German yourself, then I will defer to your "correction" of my "correction". Also, you will need to have a minimum of three (current) years of translation work performed in the very field of militaria we are discussing. Otherwise, I will have to call your opinion just that, whereas my statement can be classified as more of an "educated guess". No harm done, in any case. It's fun to dissemble about languages (especially our own).

[Brian S]

I called my mother on this one. I didn't want to drag in here that I had to call meine Mutti on this, but I did, and she stated not her opinion but emphatically, NO to the versions of the name change. You are confusing textbook methods of representing words to proper names. Not correct.

But I have no doubts your German is far far better than my fading memory of the language...

[translator]

Brians,

Well, of course I shall defer to "Deine alte Mutti" on this one! I do think, however, that what we have here is nothing more than the classic "Olson" vs. "Olsen" syndrome. Still the same guy.

[Brian S]

Maybe to Dennis the Menace, but not to Mr. Olson.

[translator]

"Dennis" being the die stamper, nicht wahr?

[Brian S]

Ja-Stimme!

[stogieman]

snicker, snicker!

Brians and translator are talking about Dennis The Menace....
...... and how he relates to Bavarian Flight Badges.
I have to tell you, there are more times I sit here laughing my arse off, than anywhere else on the net!

Why don't we wait and see if the company gets back to me. It will be interesting...

I still think that Bavarian, or Prussian, should be irrelevent when it comes to the detail work I've seen on real ones. And again, there are "things", specific detail points, common to all flight badges, that are simply not on these badges. Again, feel free to PM me and we can discuss those privately. I'm sure once you hear, you might stop and think for a moment.

[Brian S]

I think it would be more helpful if you posted one of the pics of your beautiful Prussian badges directly next to one of these Bavarian badges. Let's SEE the difference. Can you post them side by side, if not send me an email with pics and I'll right size them and put them into one pic.

[Rick Research]

The Prussian and Bavarian badges are, as I have said (I'm looking at both of my Observers as I type) already not at ALL the same except in OUTLINE of shape.

The Bavarians are quite "flat," while the Prussians are in high 3-D relief. Apples and oranges. You cannot "compare" EK1s made by two companies to each other, only against other examples of the SAME maker. EXACTLY as in the Third Reich discussions of Badge X as made by "64" in contrast with "13" or whoever.

Furthermore, it is simply Not Right (Kevin Meaney voice) to go comparing the work of a JEWELLER like Junckers to the product of a company which made Karnevalorden and "tinnies" in base metals, and whose sole adventure into bullion, as far as we know, was private purchase or wartime Low Bidder contract flying badges. American readers may get the analogy in comparing the work of Bailey, Banks, & Biddle to that of Blackington, or of Whitehead & Hoag to His Lordship Products. These were BADGES, not ORDERS--which is precisely why, apparently, none of the silversmith jewellers already making Bavarian Orders were interested! (compare Leser MVOs with Weiss & Co !)

We really do not need more OPINIONS-- what we need are more BADGES, please, for a comparison data base.

[Ralph A]

base metal...

...insignia, too.