Hungarian and Austro-Hungarian medals

[Dave Danner]

Here's a question that's somewhat off-topic, but close enough that someone here might know the answer. What was the order of precedence for Austro-Hungarian decorations on Hungarian post-war medal bars? Would a Hungarian officer or NCO place his Imperial awards after his Hungarian kingdom awards, or would they fit into the Hungarian order of precedence? For example, would an Austrian Military Merit Cross rank ahead of a Hungarian Signum Laudis; would a Karl Signum Laudis awarded in 1918 precede a Hungarian one awarded later? Any thoughts?

Dave

[Rick Research]

I've seen enough "mixtures" to wonder IF they had ANY regulations.... Usually war awards are before peacetime awards--but I've seen bars the exact opposite, suggesting as you say that New Regime took precedence over the Dead Empire. I've seen 1917 Troop Crosses mounted before OR after the 1928 WWI Commemorative Medal. I remain confused about Magyar "rules" ... Rick

[Dave Danner]

Go to http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bi...orthyLife2.jpg and scroll down to the bottom for a picture of the Hungarian War Minister in full dress. He seems to mix them up and it looks like two Imperial Signum Laudis' precede a 1922 Signum Laudis, but if they're silver and it's bronze, it might be..., or if..., sorry I'm getting a headache.

Dave

[VerKuilen Ager]

I dug out my old standby, Procházka's Österreichisches Ordenshandbuch, which also has good coverage of Hungarian awards through 1944. It has a long-winded "ordens-schema" for Austrian items and even a separate order of precedence list for Austrian women. But evidently this Hungarian topic was even too much for Procházka, and he wouldn't touch it with a ten foot medal bar.

[Dave Danner]

A rather old question of mine, resuscitated because I noted a partial answer (see below) and on the odds some of our newer members might also have something to add.

I found this pic on my computer. I must have saved it from an eBay auction I lost. It would appear to be a fairly well-integrated Austro-Hungarian/Hungarian officers bar, with a mystery as well:



1st row:
- Hungary: Order of Merit with Swords
- Hungary: Signum Laudis on War Ribbon with Swords
- Hungary: Signum Laudis on War Ribbon with Swords, again
- Austro-Hungary: Signum Laudis with (missing) Swords
2nd row:
- Austro-Hungary: Karl-Truppen-Kreuz
- Hungary: Fire Cross with bars for 2nd and 3rd award
- Austro-Hungary: Wound Medal (Laeso Militi)
- Hungary: Long Service Cross
3rd row:
- Hungary: WW1 Commemorative Medal
- Hungary: Commemorative Medal for the Liberation of Upper Hungary
- Hungary: Commemorative Medal for the Liberation of Transylvania
- Hungary: Commemorative Medal for the Return of South Hungary
4th row:
- Austria: WW1 Commemorative Medal

I surmise that the 4th ribbon on the 1st row is a Signum Laudis because it would appear to have had swords, ruling out a bravery medal. I doubt it's a Cross of Merit because the KTK indicates a frontline soldier, and a Signum Laudis is more likely in such a case. Also, because a Signum Laudis is a more basic award, I would doubt it was a higher award like the Franz Josef Orden or the Military Merit Cross (plus, a higher award would probably rank higher than the Hungarian Signum Laudis).

Austrian and Hungarian medals are integrated. Assuming I'm right about the Signum Laudis, Hungarian medals of equal rank precede their Austrian counterparts. The Hungarians also considered the lowly KTK to be a decoration, and it even outranked their own Fire Cross. However, while Austro-Hungarian medals were integrated, the Austrian WW1 Commemorative Medal was a foreign medal and so it comes last.

Here's the mystery. This is a veteran combat officer's ribbon bar. The KTK and Wound Medal indicate a combatant, and the Austrian WW1 Commemorative Medal with swords is a combatant version. However, the Hungarian WW1 Commemorative Medal is on the non-combatant ribbon!

Any thoughts?

Dave

[Dave Danner]

This thread originally preceded the International Forum; perhaps it should be copied over there?

Also, I noticed something else wrong/odd with this bar. Judging by a Hungarian order of precedence I've seen, the Hungarian WW1 Commemorative Medal should precede long service crosses.

Dave

[Rick Research]

How about this-- the Fire Cross with bars is actually the WW1 Commemorative pulling double duty? Though I've certainly seen groups with both same ribbons together...

I don't have any COLOR Hungarian ribbon references-- got a soft cover line drawings (no descriptive text except awards' names)one from back in the Bad Old Days when they were on the other side of the fence-- as I recall, sent the author four bucks cash American for it from OMSA...

was there some OTHER Hungarian ribbon that looked like the non-combatanat WW1 Commemorative?

[Dave Danner]

Last first. That is definitely the non-combatant WW1 commemorative. The only other similar Hungarian ribbon, indeed the only other Hungarian ribbon with a white center, was the Red Cross Decoration. The pattern was the same, but like the Austrian Red Cross Decoration, the side stripes were thin.

There is a reprint of a 1940s Hungarian poster of all their medals that has shown up on eBay. It is in color. By that poster, BTW, the Fire Cross ribbon should have a device to indicate which version it was.

I saved the image from that auction. See below.

In the lower right corner, it says it was prepared by the Military History Museum, so I suppose if anyone is in Budapest, they could get it form the museum shop.

It's a poster for awards to Hungarians, so the Order of the Holy Crown isn't there (did you catch that beautiful cased one on eBay?). However, the Military Order of Maria Theresa and the Order of St. Stephan are, since these k.u.k. awards remained in the Hungarian awards system. Note that the knight of the Order of St. Stephan outranks the Commander of the Order of Merit and the Maria Theresa outranks everything.

Dave