Besides the PLM what are these other medals?

[vonStubben]

I recently did a trade on the e-stand with a fellow member for 3 guest books full of hundreds of signatures of important Imperial (and later Third Reich) personalities.

These guest books belonged to a Pour Le Merite winner by the name of Major Ernst Gruson. He won the PLM in 1918. He was with the 4th Magdeburgische Infanterie Regiment 67.

What I would like to know is, what are all the other neck awards he is wearing?

Thanks,

Chuck

[ottomaton]

Directly below the PLM is the Anhalt Order of Albrecht the Bear halfway tucked into his shirt.

The white one below it looks like one of any number of orders so I can't say, maybe The Order of Berthold the First from Baden?

At the bottom is the commander's cross for the Bulgarian Military Merit Order.

[Les]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I recently did a trade on the e-stand with a fellow member for 3 guest books full of hundreds of signatures of important Imperial (and later Third Reich) personalities.

These guest books belonged to a Pour Le Merite winner by the name of Major Ernst Gruson. He won the PLM in 1918. He was with the 4th Magdeburgische Infanterie Regiment 67.
...... Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck, There must have been a relatively large group of Gruson related items not all that long ago. I bought several items (the person selling the stuff I bought was in Canada) that were offered on ebay and didn't know there were other Gruson related items that had been sold recently. .... I don't know if your source and mine are the same. If I'd known there was a group being split up and parcelled off, I'd have been interested in acquiring the whole group....or passing on any of it instead of condoning a collection being split up and parcelled off. Now knowing that a group of documents (and who knows what else) has been split up (for whatever reasons), I'd pass on the ebay sale if I knew then what I found out through your post. ..... .... What I got was small stuff such as receipts and various papers with his name on it, most post-dating 1918, a few from the DDR period, and some from the middle of the 19th century that were documents probably belonging to his parents. .... ..... I really don't like people who split groups up, and in the process remove historical items from whatever small amount of context they still have. Call it my personal point of view, but people that do that are -not- historians but out to make money, with collecting interests falling a distant second (or further down the list than that). http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...es/1scream.gif ..... Soap box rant/off .... Les

[vonStubben]

Directly below the PLM is the Anhalt Order of Albrecht the Bear halfway tucked into his shirt.

The white one below it looks like one of any number of orders so I can't say, maybe The Order of Berthold the First from Baden?

At the bottom is the commander's cross for the Bulgarian Military Merit Order.

Thank you for your help. Now I can do some research on each medal and see what they were for.

Chuck

[Wild Card]

Hi Chuck,

I think that you may find the white cross to be a Saxon Ernestine Order badge and the one below it a Bulgarian Order of National Merit.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[ottomaton]

Hi Chuck,

I think that you may find the white cross to be a Saxon Ernestine Order badge and the one below it a Bulgarian Order of National Merit.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

While I yield to your opinion on the Saxon medal, it is my understanding that the Bulgarian Order of National Merit has white enamel while the Bulgarian Order of Military Merit has red enamel. I don’t think based on the photo that one could claim that the enamel is white instead of red.

I also believe the National Merit Order has plant fronds of some sort instead of swords.

[Dave Danner]

While I yield to your opinion on the Saxon medal, it is my understanding that the Bulgarian Order of National Merit has white enamel while the Bulgarian Order of Military Merit has red enamel. I don’t think based on the photo that one could claim that the enamel is white instead of red.

I also believe the National Merit Order has plant fronds of some sort instead of swords.

You are both mixing up the terminology. The orders are the National Order for Military Merit (Народен орден „За военна заслуга“) and the National Order for Civil Merit (Народен орден „За гражданска заслуга“). The one pictured is the National Order for Military Merit, and the white enamel around the center medallion indicates that it is on the ribbon of the Military Order for Bravery (военен орден „За храброст“). It ought to also have the wreath indicating it is a war decoration, but that does not appear to be present.

[Wild Card]

A clarification

Hi ottomaton,

I am not quite sure about the Bulgarian Order of Military Merit (the Royal Military Order was based on a white Maltese cross) to which you refer; but at the same time my post was not completely accurate in that I should have specified the Bulgarian Order of National Merit military division.

You are correct in that, when founded, the Order of National Merit had a white cross; but according to the late Bob Werlich. in his book Orders and Decorations of all Nations, “Later they were red enamel”. Bob further states that, referring to the center medallion, “If for special merit, surrounded by a wreath of oak leaves...”, to which you refer

Shown below is the only example I have - unfortunately not the same grade as the one in your picture. I hope that this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Dave Danner]

Hi ottomaton,

I am not quite sure about the Bulgarian Order of Military Merit (the Royal Military Order was based on a white Maltese cross) to which you refer; but at the same time my post was not completely accurate in that I should have specified the Bulgarian Order of National Merit military division.

You are correct in that, when founded, the Order of National Merit had a white cross; but according to the late Bob Werlich. in his book Orders and Decorations of all Nations, “Later they were red enamel”. Bob further states that, referring to the center medallion, “If for special merit, surrounded by a wreath of oak leaves...”, to which you refer

Shown below is the only example I have - unfortunately not the same grade as the one in your picture. I hope that this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

The "plant fronds" on the National Order of Civil Merit to which ottomaton refers are these, seen between the arms of this IV. Class badge:

[Dave Danner]

The "wreath of oak leaves..." to which Werlich refers is the war decoration, a wreath superimposed on the badge, not between the arms.

As Todor Petrov notes in Orders and Medals of Bulgaria:

...по време на война последните три степени се раздават и с лентата на военния ордена „За храброст“. Освен това с изключение на последната степен орденът се раздава и за бойни отличия по време на война, украсен с лавров венец. В тези случаи без изключение IV и V степен се даряват само на лентата на ордена „За храброст“, а пръстенът около медальона на аверса и реверса е винаги от бял емайл.

Roughly translated:

... in time of war the lowest three classes were also issued on the ribbon of the Military Order for Bravery. Besides this, with the exception of the lowest class, the order was also issued for combat distinction in time of war, decorated with a wreath of laurels. In such cases, without exception the 4th and 5th classes were only given on the ribbon of the Military Order for Bravery, and the ring around the medallions on the obverse and reverse is always made of white enamel.

This is an example of the war decoration:

[ottomaton]

As Todor Petrov notes in Orders and Medals of Bulgaria:

Roughly translated:

So do you actually speak/read Bulgarian?

[ottomaton]

Hi ottomaton,

I am not quite sure about the Bulgarian Order of Military Merit (the Royal Military Order was based on a white Maltese cross) to which you refer; but at the same time my post was not completely accurate in that I should have specified the Bulgarian Order of National Merit military division.

I apologize. The terminology I used was apparently a contraction, and was what I had seen before in common usage.

To illustrate, if you Google "Bulgarian Order of Military Merit" you get this:



while a Google of "Bulgarian Order of National Merit" returns this:

[Dave Danner]

So do you actually speak/read Bulgarian?

Read, yes; speak, no.

[McCulloh]

I've had a look through my rankbooks and find Gruson as a regular Hauptman who later commanded IR 72 and was "breveted" a Lt. Colonel and served in the Peace Commission.
Can we see the docs at all?
Thanks.

[Wild Card]

Royal military Merit Order

Hi Ottomaton,

Please, no need for apologies. Obviously, there is enough confusion on this subject out there for all of us and this is how we learn. With regard to the Royal military Merit Order, below is a picture of an example (from Kaiser Wilhelm II The Adventures of his Orders and Medals, by Michael Forman) which I co-owned, and since sold, with the late George Seymour some years ago.

It is worth noting the skulls on the swords because there were only three such awards. This one was awarded to Kaiser Wilhelm, the second to the Sultan of Turkey and the third, of course, to Ferdinand. I have been told that Ferdinand’s badge was larger than the other two; but can not confirm it.

Best wishes,

Wild Card