All Your Panzer Badge are Belong to Fake?

[VerKuilen Ager]

Ready for some New Year's controversy?

Some months ago we ran the Weimer-era Panzer Badge into the ground with a couple of threads. At one point we actually had a photo of the award document (perhaps the owner will post it again), which included an illustration of the badge at the top. What I found interesting at the time was that the skull shown on the document was in profile, not face forward. This struck me as odd, because German document depictions are notoriously accurate, and I suggested in a backchannel comm to Rick L., that "maybe the document is accurate and every badge we've ever seen is a fake." Well, here's evidence that suggests this might actually be the case.



You'll recognize Sepp Dietrich (circa 1932). The photo isn't crystal clear, but I think clear enough to show that the skull at the top isn't the face-forward, skull-with-crossed-bones-below version we always see. It is a profile skull with bones crossing behind about mid way. The lopsided wreath and mismatch of the bow show that the badge was photographed at a bit of an angle. If it had been perfectly square, the skull would have appeared even more in profile.

Now, denial will set in and we'll come up with a bunch of reasons why old Sepp's badge was an abberation and all those hard-won treasures salted away in the safe deposit are AOK. But, on the other hand maybe it's time to evaluate anew what we really know about this award.

P.S. For those who don't have a teenage son to show you these things, the weird title on this thread comes from one of the strangest and funniest sites on the Web: "All Your Base Are Belong To Us."

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Histaria ]

[K Rosemann]

Histaria:

This is a great observation that I honestly never noticed in that particular photo. I'd say that what you have found may be the key to understanding the difference in the ORIGINAL 20s made pieces, and the 30s made "wearers copies", or whatever you want to call them. I have that photo, and looking very carefully the head is indeed facing to the right...NO question about it. However, I submit this picture, taken in 1940 at the Berchtesgaden. Thought blowing the picture up really made the quality suck, it's very obvious the head on this piece is facing forward.



Again, this is a great observation, and I believe this really differentiates the 20s production from the 30s production. Given the fact that I have now looked through many pictures of Sepp DURING the war, quality is pretty poor, but the badge appears to have the forward facing head. This would explain the copies and reproductions. This only leaves me one question...where are the original 20s made badges? I've NEVER seen one, but obviously the exist.

Kevin

[Bob Hritz]

What a great discovery! The whole badge is different; shape of skull, width and shape of wreath, and overall shape of badge. is this Sepp's issue badge or a private purchase example? I hope someone can find an example as it is much more attractive than the type I have, and have seen in other collections. Now I have to start hunting again! Is there no end? I guess that is what keeps us collecting.
Bob Hritz

[K Rosemann]

I have done alot of looking since seeing the fabulous picture Histaria posted. It seems to me that the 2nd pattern badge was created around the period between May 1933 and October 1933. I have been perusing MANY pictures, and this is the period I can't find any pictures of Sepp between these dates to slam down an actual month in which he decided to switch. There are a couple of pictures of people other than Sepp wearing these during the war, and they are all 2nd type. I will continue to look until I cannot find anything more. WE may be looking at a politcal move as well as military. Could have been that Hitler (with a nudge from Sepp?) may have created a new tank badge that was not like the Weimar badge, and the new look was a political maneuver as well. Who knows? I do knwo that as Bob said, there is going to be a great search until I or one of you can procure this piece and we can examine it carefully. I'll check in later when I have gone through ALL the pictures at my disposal.

Kevin

[Frank Heukemes]

Gentlemen,

I am sorry to have to come up with a very blunt and simple theory, because your theory seems to be more fascinating:
To me it more seems that Sepp Dietrich´s piece might be UNIQUE, especially made for him by a jeweller on his request, probably silver. Later he might have replaced it for the regular one, for some reason we will never know. Maybe he got too many comments on his very individual example and was simply fed up with it. It just seems odd to me that we do not know of ANY other pictures with this type. Strangely, Sepp´s profiled skull looks much more "Third Reich" than the frontal view one that according to your theory should be the second type.
A very interesting discussion though!

Cheers, Frank

[Frank Heukemes]

...apart from the general discussion, shouldn´t the EK1 1914 and the Panzerwagen badge be switched in places to be according to the correct form of wearing these?

Cheers, Frank

[K Rosemann]

Frank:

First, I doubt seriously that the piece in the early picture is a jewler's made copy. I state this based on the fact that in the interwar years, Sepp ahd various jobs: Soldier in Silesia, butcher, policeman, hotel bellhop, NSDAP personal protector of Adolf Hitler, and fianlly a commander of the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler. In this time, he ammmassed almost no money. His job in Silesia didn't pay well, he was a butcher (debatable) during the Beer Hall Putsch. He quit the hotel job because it paid less than the Freikorp had. And early on in his NSDAP recruitment, he wasn't paid anything and had to bum food and smokes off those people that were hosting NSDAP rallies or talks. In 1933 (sometime in the summer) the Panzerkampfabzeichen everyone's accustomed to was adorning his tunic. This is when he started to get some money, after the party took control of Germany. Before that, he was poor, relying on the party and others to supply him substanence. I can't imagine him using whatever money had to purchase this piece from a jeweler privately. It was free to him in 1922 from the government and the firm of Juncker, so why not get the free one, and wear it untill the time was right for a change? Of course this "new" early version brings out more unsubstantiated evidence than facts, but I summize that this would have been the case. As for the EK1 and the Panzerkampfabzeichen being worn in different places, it's well documented that Sepp wore decoratiosn at his leisure. The setup on his Panzerwrap was made for the Gold Party Pin aboe everything else, then the Pilot/Observer Diamonds wear an EK noramlly would have been worn, and then the WWI Tank Badge to the right of that adna little lower, and the WWI EK1 worn at the bottom! So he wasn't one for regulation, and nothing really surprises me when asked about his quirks.

Kevin

[admcdonald]

Dear Histaria,
For some time now I have been a listener to the imperial section,and after this I hope to return.
I do now feel qualified as an observer looking in that your observation that "qualification badges"almost always were akin to their award documents is not necessarilly so.
First and foremost,I endeavoured to find the posting of the Kampfwagen-Abzeichen-with no luck,therefore I had to rely on Niemann.(pgs.136-137).
If indeed these documents and badges were as closely aligned as you say,then surely the number of wreathes shown on the award document would compel you to a different conclusion.Again I am going by Niemann's urkunde.
I am also not of the opinion that the skull is in fact facing forward that you and Kevin suggest.If there is anyone besides Rick who can tell the difference between a badge in wear ,it is surely Bill Stump.
These are merely my personal observations,and I have added them only as an alternative observation.As I have said previously I am a watcher and a listener.
Regards:A.D.McDonald

[K Rosemann]

Mr. McDonald:

I have a few photos of this particular badge in wear, and in all of them the head seems to be facing to the right. The angle is not making this happen, as it's in all the pre summer 1933 pictures I have found thus far. However, the bigger point is that Histeria found this based on a document photo and a VAST knowledge og imperial decorations. The fact that there is a first type of the WWI Commemorative Tank Badge is truely the intriguing part of the entire thread. I've been studying these for a while, and those pictures never meant anything to me, until this new information was posted for us.

Back to the point though, there is not an angle deception, the head definately faces to the right. Your observations on the wreath are something that may need to be examined though. I think the point Histeria made earlier was that the "general" appearance of badges/medals on the award documents was consistant with the actual badge. Opinions?

Kevin

[VerKuilen Ager]

For those who missed the document the last time around, here is the detail that has been mentioned. All three examples from the thread are put in line so you don't have to scroll up and down to make comparisons. I'm also offering yet another photo of the model SS man Sepp which was published in July 1932 (I have reason to believe that it was taken in the spring of that year). In this example, the tank badge is shown almost dead on. Given what we might call the "imperfection" in the ribbon of the badge in both Sepp photos, as well as the similar time periods, it might be safe to presume that this was the exact same piece. See what you make of the skull on this second item.

[Gunner II]

panzerabzeigen 32

Hello people,
I'm not a real imperial collector, but since I'm dealing in Germany,
I get a lot of this stuff shown. I have seen this badge with skull this year about 3 times for sale. Mostley they go for about 180 euro's.
Since I don't have bought them, I cant say if they are all original, but all I know is that they aren't that extreme rare.:o :o

[Frank Heukemes]

Gunner II,

There is no way you have seen 3 ORIGINALS of this badge in Germany for this price. Definitely fakes.

Cheers, Frank

[Rick Research]

There were only 99 recipients eligible for this badge. Since it was only authorized in the 1920s, it is entirely likely that not all of those entitled to one ever got one. Even if every single eligible recipient ran out and bought three badges each, that makes under 300 badges, total, ever. Deduct the losses of war and 70 years, and how many of a theoretical 300 could possibly be left... AND available for public sale!?

I too see three of these at any given show. They are all fake.

[Gunner II]

panzerbadge for sale.

Hello guy's,
Check this one out. The badge is for sale at Ebay.de in Germany. The seller dousn't have a clue of what he's got. It look pretty good to me.
Go see and think for your self what you think of this badge.
Cheers:Peter










http://abacus.sj.ipixmedia.com/abc/M...e30b86/i-5.JPG

http://abacus.sj.ipixmedia.com/abc/M...e30b86/i-6.JPG

[admcdonald]

Dear Kevin,
Fair enough,I merely suggested these opinions (with a little bit of research)as an outsider looking in,with a view to possibly opening up an as yet unrealised method of determining originals,vis-a-vis fakes,through documented urkunde.
Regards:Andrew