1870 EK II w NS frame

[vonStubben]

I have owned this 1870 Iron Cross second class for quite some time and posted it once but got no response from anyone.

I am posting pictures again in the hope to get some discussion going regarding it.

What makes this one so unusual is it's nickle silver frame and stippled core. Not only that but the cross's suspension rings are made of copper and attached to the cross on an unusual stepped rim.

Does anyone else have one like it in their collections?

Thanks,

Chuck

[vonStubben]

Front

[vonStubben]

back

[vonStubben]

Seam work

[vonStubben]

Split ring

[gregM]

Can you post the size and weight? My 1870s run between 41mm - 42mm.
The small ring is going the wrong way. Yours is positioned like one of a
grand cross. The 0 in the 1870 looks really odd. I may be way off base but to me looks like a reproduction grand cross.

Interesting piece. I hope more more people join the discussion.--I have never seen one like it before. Thanks for sharing.

[Marc Garlasco]

Reminds me of a 1939 Schinkel-B EK2.
Marc

[vonStubben]

Can you post the size and weight? My 1870s run between 41mm - 42mm.
The small ring is going the wrong way. Yours is positioned like one of a
grand cross. The 0 in the 1870 looks really odd. I may be way off base but to me looks like a reproduction grand cross.

Interesting piece. I hope more more people join the discussion.--I have never seen one like it before. Thanks for sharing.

Greg,

The size of this cross is 42mm tall x 42mm wide (including the step it's 45mm tall) and weighs 16.6 grams. The core is iron.

Thanks for your input.

Chuck

[gregM]

I had thought also that it might be a TR era replacement piece but the ring attachment would still be wrong--wouldn't it?

[Paratrooper]

I had thought also that it might be a TR era replacement piece but the ring attachment would still be wrong--wouldn't it?

Hi,

this version of the EK 2 1870 with the "nose" for the ring is original and a rare version.

Regards
Andreas

[Biro]

Hi, this version of the EK 2 1870 with the "nose" for the ring is original and a rare version....Regards, Andreas

Hello Andreas

Can you elaborate a little as to why/how you can state with such certainty that it's both rare and original?

Everything about the construction and style of this EK2 says either third reich era or possible fake to me - it's certainly nothing like any award era piece I've seen - so I'm intrigued to hear what you have up your sleeve...

regards

Marshall

[Tiger 1]

Just a few thoughts about this cross.

IMO it is not is a TR era 1870. The frame size is not TR specs. 42 mm versus 44mm.

I wouldn't call it an original and rare version of an 1870 EKII either. The style and workmanship is not anything like a genuine 1870, either contemporary to the period or Jubilee era. Do a search of the forum and compare with known examples of 1870 EKIIs.

Some meat and potatoes to flesh out my arguement.

The frame with the 'nub' (nose) at the top is not an unknown feature. But on the EK shown this 'nub'(nose) is way to large when compared with other original examples. This 'nub'(nose) can be found on 1870, 1914, and 1939 EKII examples but none are that humungous.

The core has some nice pebbling on the field. This is not known to exist on 1870s but is on ocassion seen on some 1914 and early Schinkle 'B' types of 1939 EKIIs. The details core don't match known originals.

Finally, the copper rings and the visible soft solder suggest that this cross was not assembled for award as a true military decoration. This obvious cheapness of construction and lack of final finish would not have passed by the Orders office of the German government.

At best it should be compared with some examples of pebbled core, one and three piece examples made for commercial sales during the early interwar years. More realistaicaly this cross was probably manufactured for the collectors market in the '60s or 70's. Maybe in Austria or more likely in the Far East, possibly Taiwan.

I too would be interested in hearing futher comments about this EKII.

All the best,

Tony

[vonStubben]

Just a few thoughts about this cross.

IMO it is not is a TR era 1870. The frame size is not TR specs. 42 mm versus 44mm.

I wouldn't call it an original and rare version of an 1870 EKII either. The style and workmanship is not anything like a genuine 1870, either contemporary to the period or Jubilee era. Do a search of the forum and compare with known examples of 1870 EKIIs.

Some meat and potatoes to flesh out my arguement.

The frame with the 'nub' (nose) at the top is not an unknown feature. But on the EK shown this 'nub'(nose) is way to large when compared with other original examples. This 'nub'(nose) can be found on 1870, 1914, and 1939 EKII examples but none are that humungous.

The core has some nice pebbling on the field. This is not known to exist on 1870s but is on ocassion seen on some 1914 and early Schinkle 'B' types of 1939 EKIIs. The details core don't match known originals.

Finally, the copper rings and the visible soft solder suggest that this cross was not assembled for award as a true military decoration. This obvious cheapness of construction and lack of final finish would not have passed by the Orders office of the German government.

At best it should be compared with some examples of pebbled core, one and three piece examples made for commercial sales during the early interwar years. More realistaicaly this cross was probably manufactured for the collectors market in the '60s or 70's. Maybe in Austria or more likely in the Far East, possibly Taiwan.

I too would be interested in hearing futher comments about this EKII.

All the best,

Tony

Very interesting thoughts from you all. Especially Tony, and I was told by one of the moderators who doesn't know this type of cross well enough to make any statement about it that you of all people would have a pretty good idea about this particular item.

What I would like do is to send it to you for a hands on inspection (if you would like to do this you can PM me with your particulars) as I do not believe it to be post war (1945) produced, and never have I seen another like it, or any other post 1945 reproduction of any other type award with this type "nose" either. Also, as a side note, I have shown it to Mike Tucker and he was of a very strong and steadfast opinion that it was an authentic piece.

The core is iron of the type one would expect to be used from 1813 to 1945 for an iron cross. The copper suspension rings, albeit unusual, are pulled wire which is not commonly seen post 1945, with the larger loop the size of what one would expect to find on a Grossordenspange mount. Also, although made of nickle silver, the frames are well defined, manufactured, and joined.

It is my personal opinion that it was made between 1870 and 1945 but I would like to try and pin it down to an exact time frame.

Keep it coming!

Chuck

[Daniel Murphy]

I have seen EKs made with NS frames from the 20's and I have seen the loops like that on some of the brass 1914 EK's. But look at the quality of even late war '39 EKs. Even the eks made in the 20's and 30's retained most of their quality compared to the pre '19 pieces. If this were made after '41 it would have the 44mm frame. I have a hard time believing that this was made even pre '45. I just cannot see any pre '45 German jeweler or medal manufacturer making this. The core details and that huge chunk of metal sticking out of the top, make me believe that perhaps it was made in commemoration of the 100th anniversary in 1970-71. There were 1813 EKs made in 1913 for the 100th anniversary and German military units dressed up in the old Napoleonic style uniforms etc. it would make sense for this to be done again. Perhaps the Bundeswehr carried on this tradition. It's construction reminds me of the Volkswanderung (walking club) event medals made during the 60's-70's. Of course, I may be wrong (as I often am).
Dan Murphy

[vonStubben]

I was checking the different web sites out there a couple of days ago and found what I believe to be an identical cross like my example being sold by Bill Shea on the Ruptured Duck site. The cross is found in his Iron Cross section.

Same nickle silver frame, dates, etc. Only problem is you can't see the suspension set up on this one due to the Jubilee oak leaves.

Chuck