Rarest Form of 1914 EK2 on a Wehrmacht Medal Bar

[Rick Research]

This is posted over on the main Wehrmacht Forum under "Third Reich Wehrmacht Medal Bars" but it belongs here with us, because the interesting bit is Imperial. It is one of Jason Williams' bars--



Only 6,855 of these EK2s were awarded, making them twice as rare as the 13,000 WWI second class Iron Crosses on the "white-black" noncombatant ribbon!!!--

What we have here as a noncombatant Iron Cross on a "combatant" ribbon!

Huh?

Yup--absolutely indistinguishable from one of the 5 million "normal" combatant Iron Crosses 2nd Class-- see the NON-Combatant WWI Honor Cross!

This version of the Iron Cross is ONLY verifiable with an award document, which states that the cross was awarded "for war merit in the homeland."

So any of you who think swapping Honor Crosses on bars to "jazz them up" will increase selling prices-- it ain't going to work.

While EXTREMELY interesting, and Jason's bar (note the Prussian War Effort Cross) is unquestionably original, I would not pay a premium for it because it is the rarest form of EK2. There is ZERO physical difference in the cross or its ribbon with the 5 million.

[Dave Danner]

OK, this has been posted before, but since the issue again arises and I can't remember the answer, if any, from the last time, here we go:



EK.2 on combatant ribbon, ZLO with swords (which for Baden just meant military as opposed to civilian, not necessarily combatant), non-combatant Ehrenkreuz, Wehrmacht DA.

[Bill D.]

I'm afraid that I'm a little confused. Nothing about the top bar seems inapropriate to me, including the Honor Cross without swords coupled with the combatant EK II. It has ben my understanding that the use of swords on a WW I Honor Cros had nothing really to do with the proximity of the recipient to actual combat, but rather reflected whether he served in one of the "combat branches" during the war (i.e., infantry, artillery, cavalry, etc.). I have had the impression that an individual who was in a non-combat unit, such as supply or medical, would be given the Honor Cross without swords. However, that does not mean that they could not have done something while at the front to merit the EK II. I seem to recall some time back looking at a medal bar with the non-combatant Honor Cross, but with an EK II on black/white ribbon. The award documents were with it and indicated that the decorations had been awarded to a Doctor or similiar medical-related individual who had aparently served at the front. If my understanding is incorrect, please let me know by all means.

[Rick Research]

ANY service at the Front under fire (? 5 minutes...) qualified for the Frontka"mpferkreuz.

The key was participation in a frontline action as indicated by the "Mitgemachte Gefechten" entries in the military ID book. I had a group to an overage fellow in a Wirtschaftskompagnie whose duties were harvesting crops and sawing wood and HE got the cross with Swords.

So there were probably rear support and headquarters personnel who were only in distant listening range of shellfire who got the "with Swords," but nobody who had been under fire did NOT get the swords. Their military papers--usually long gone by the time we find the remnants--clearly indicated whether they were officially considered "front" or "rear" personnel by action--or lack of any--noted there.

Nor did civilians--like railways personnel--who had never been in MILITARY uniform--get ANY Hindenburg Cross, even though they could have well been under direct artillery or aircraft attack.

As in any army in any war, some got more than they deserved and some got less.

The key to a "black" noncombatant EK is that the AWARD DOCUMENT will state that it was for "War Merit In The Homeland" and NOT "on the White-Black Ribbon."

I have a document in a group to an artillery reserve officer (ex-Regular) who got his "black" noncombatant EK as an adjutant in a home army establishment outfit on the Baltic, nowhere near any fighting. "Why" is a question I have NO answer for!!

BTW I have an APPLICATION for the Hindenburg Cross which shows that the type bestowed was connected to examination of the potential recipient's military papers from the war...

all posting subjects for the long dark winter months ahead....

Dave's bar could have been someone like a war's duration pharmacist (the Third Reich 40 Years Civil Service Cross, without any Imperial military long service award, indicates someone on the state payroll from ca 1900, yet not enough time in for even a Reserve-Landwehr medal) in Freiburg i/B who somehow got a "black" noncombatant EK--or the awards could have been messed with. It is always hard to tell with a sloppy bar like that, mounted all over the place.

But unlike the 1870/71 Campaign Medals (which WERE awarded by "status" of the recipient--so that you have "noncombatant medal on non-combatant ribbon" to frontline medical personnel who could have had limbs blown off in action--and would THEN still have gotten a "white black" EK, while a recruit back in Danzig got the "noncombatant medal on combatant ribbon"--a mess if ever there was one!), the WWI Hindenburg Crosses were awarded solely by whether the man had or had not been in recognized "combat"--regardless of branch of service. The logic of that, compared to the bizarre pre-WWI Prussian "norm," is obvious and fair.

[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Rick Lundstrom ]

[Drew Wright]

Ok, I'm a bit confused... If the guy won the EKII under non-combatant status, why did they use the combatant ribbon on this bar? Was this an error or something else?

Thanks!

Drew

[Dez H]

Yes my head is spinning around abit now too sorry. Is it possible for someone to receive both the non-combatant and the combatant EK2?Also how would you tell if someone received the non-combatant EK1? As I understand it all the way though the Iron Crosses 1813, 1870 1914, the non-combatant was awarded. And during the Third Reich the War Merit Cross replaced the non-combatant Iron Cross

[Rick Research]

Nobody could receive more than one of the same class of Iron Cross.

Most of the 1914 bars to the 1870 EK2, in my experience, went to ancient Beamten or elderly retreads who had received the combatant 1870 and probably would have gotten a "white-black" 1914--but there was NO provision for switching types of ribbon in these cases.

There was no confusion between normal combatant "black-white" ribbons and normal noncombatant "white-black" ribbons.

The weirdness is with the "black-white" NONcombatant awards.

I don't "understand" them either! Can't explain them. Have never seen any statutory reason for them--but they existed, and were separately counted. (Believe it or not, there were also "black-noncombatant" EK1s, but we all need some brain cells not imploded...)

Who wants to see the crucial bit--the DOCUMENTS? I've posted a "white-black" before, which is now evaporated, and have a "black-noncombatant" as well.

Here is a bar with the normal "white-black" noncombatant Iron Cross:



note that this man was some sort of MILITARY noncombatant, because he received a noncombatant Hindenburg Cross. "White-black" EKs will often be found in groups with NO Hindenburg Cross because these were also awarded to CIVILIANS during and after WWI (10,000 of the 13,000 "white-blacks" were awarded AFTER the Armistice).

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Rick Lundstrom ]

[Mike H.]

Okay,

So in 1870, a doctor serving in a front line "combat" outfit (MASH-like?) would recieve the 2.EK on white-black ribbon. This same type of doctor in 1916 would receive the 2.EK on black-white ribbon with a Hindenburg Cross without swords?

[Daniel Krause]

exactly! In WW1 they changed a lot of things.

1870/71 REAL combattants got the campaign medal in bronze on the combattants ribbon, non-combattants serving at the frontline (also docs) got the non-comb. steel medal on the combattants ribbon, non-combattants in the rear area got the steel medal on the non-combattants ribbon.

1914/18 nearly everybody who heard a shot got the combattants awards.

Best regards

Daniel

[Mike H.]

THANK YOU!

Okay. The smoke is clearing, the over-heating gears are cooling. The dizziness is fading.

It's this kind of fact hunting that intriques me, long live Imperial!