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**IMPERIAL QUEST** · 03-22-2006, 03:54 PM

Henrik,
I don't know what to think to be honest. The dot pattern on the front seems to match, and the bow as well. Overall, it looks like a dead match. But....it could ...could have been stamped from the original dies. I think that if someone is cranking these out currently, time will tell as I am sure they will be showing uop everywhere. The fact that the edges don't shine is probably a good sign . Is there any evidence of polishing that you can detect? I am sure that Chris V. and some others will chime in. As you say, for $15.00, you really aren't going to lose anything. What I do know is that this type, as you said, is quite scarce. This was the type worn by Adolf himself, and are extremely hard to find. I hope you don't mind me attaching two reference photos of this type.

First, a very thick black example in brass.

**IMPERIAL QUEST** · 03-22-2006, 03:56 PM

Here is a paper thin silver version also made of brass.

**IMPERIAL QUEST** · 03-22-2006, 04:14 PM

Here is Henrik's example from the link that he provided.

**IMPERIAL QUEST** · 03-22-2006, 04:42 PM

Here are two of Henrik's examples for reference.

Black

**IMPERIAL QUEST** · 03-22-2006, 04:44 PM

and silver...

**WB_Collector** · 03-22-2006, 04:44 PM

Steven,

there is something, that could be some sort of rests of polish, just above the right sword hilt when looking at the reverse. Other than that I can't find any evidence of polishing/cleaning.
Also noticed that the sheet indeed matches up with my silver badge of this model. Guess I was to hasty before.

**IMPERIAL QUEST** · 03-22-2006, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by WB_Collector

Steven,

there is something, that could be some sort of rests of polish, just above the right sword hilt when looking at the reverse. Other than that I can't find any evidence of polishing/cleaning.
Also noticed that the sheet indeed matches up with my silver badge of this model. Guess I was to hasty before.

I asked because that would explain the shiny appearance, as we both know, unpolished brass (if period) would be a very dark rich cream/brown color by now. I was under the impression that these were sheared cleanly when pressed, ejecting the planchet. I didn't think that they were pressed, and then trimmed out

.

**WB_Collector** · 03-22-2006, 05:12 PM

I could ask a jeweller for opinions on the age and if it has the looks of beeing polished. Might be worth a try, they'll probably have eagle eyes for those matters.

I second your impression of the process as well, as it's faster and more precise than pressing and then cutting. The berry at the top of this type of badge would make it quite hard to trim it nice by hand.

**IMPERIAL QUEST** · 03-22-2006, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by WB_Collector

I could ask a jeweller for opinions on the age and if it has the looks of beeing polished. Might be worth a try, they'll probably have eagle eyes for those matters.

I second your impression of the process as well, as it's faster and more precise than pressing and then cutting. The berry at the top of this type of badge would make it quite hard to trim it nice by hand.

You could try the jeweler, but I wouldn't think you would have too much luck with them. It just hit me...maybe it's another variation of the WB cookie molds being sold on e-bay...

Seriously, it could be a test planchet to observe the quality of the dies before going into actual full scale production???

**WB_Collector** · 03-22-2006, 05:30 PM

Oh no Steven. Not the cookie molds.

I'm so glad I didn't have to pay for one I had the highest bid on. Boy do I feel stupid for bidding on that one...

Now thats an interesting theory. Considering that it looks like it was stamped with a quite worn die, a quality test would be most neccesary (to see if the die still has what it takes to make badges that look nice) before going in to larger production.

Going to bed now, hope there are some new opinions and views when I wake up. Thanks so far Steven.

**IMPERIAL QUEST** · 03-22-2006, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by WB_Collector

Oh no Steven. Not the cookie molds.

I'm so glad I didn't have to pay for one I had the highest bid on. Boy do I feel stupid for bidding on that one...

Now thats an interesting theory. Considering that it looks like it was stamped with a quite worn die, a quality test would be most neccesary (to see if the die still has what it takes to make badges that look nice) before going in to larger production.

Going to bed now, hope there are some new opinions and views when I wake up. Thanks so far Steven.

You are very welcome.

Does he have any "brothers"? wink wink...

**Tony & Kaiser** · 03-23-2006, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by IMPERIAL QUEST

I asked because that would explain the shiny appearance, as we both know, unpolished brass (if period) would be a very dark rich cream/brown color by now.

Not always. Oxidation is a result of exposure to air and light. I have found little boxes of vet items that had not seen the light of day in 80 + years, and the brass items were bright and clean and not the least bit oxidized.

Tony http://www.kaisersbunker.com

**WB_Collector** · 03-23-2006, 10:47 AM

Thanks for your reply Tony! Have you any idea if this could be a period piece?

/Henrik

**Daniel Murphy** · 03-23-2006, 12:10 PM

I have seen pictures of the various stages of Iron Cross production during WW1. The frames were stamped out of a square sheet of silver and then were trimmed inside and out. You have to realize this is a three dimensional item. When the metal starts being formed in the die, the metal "pulls" toward the center. This is the reason for the bending you see on the edge of the planchet. If this were done using a planchet the size and shape of a finished wound badge, the metal would "pull" toward the center leaving gaps on the edges of the badge that would cause it to be rejected. Using a slightly larger sheet would make it harder for the person to trim it properly. It seems like a lot of wastage this way, but the waste can be re-smelted, rolled and used again.

You have to understand that during the period these were made, the material used was more expensive than the labor used to make them. (They were called sweatshops for a reason, 16 hour workdays, no sick leave, no vacation, no health care. These things cost money.) The workers were paid little, so who cares if they have to do a lot of work to finish something. This is the reason you see a lot of handstitching ( mainly the liner and buttonholes) on even issue uniforms made up to the end in 1918. The same thing applies with antique furniture, everything was hand carved because it only cost pennies a day to have the carvers do it. Now, the opposite is true, the labor is much more expensive and materials are cheap. And nothing today is hand made or finished without costing a fortune.
Dan Murphy

PS: I also ask, are there any more of these where that one came from?

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Unfinished woundbadge brass sheet

Unfinished woundbadge brass sheet

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