Seek, and ye shall find........ Real Pilot Badges

[stogieman]

Despite the nasty rumors pushed around by certain nefarious individuals, I have not abandoned ye Imperialites. Nay, I have simply begun pursuit of a new direction. Namely, to research and learn as much as possible about C.E. Juncker, Berlin Jeweler, Badge maker. This project will take me to both wars.
Now, I look everywhere, confident in my experience and a support system of some of the best-known names in our hobby.
This causes me to search even the much-maligned Manion's site. Where, despite the lack of consistency, sometimes you do get lucky! I submit this for you. It's real. It's right. It's mine. Cheers!

[stogieman]

More images,

Nice shot of the front. This one will need a little cleaning.

[stogieman]

More images,

Here's a nice shot of the back.

[stogieman]

Final image,

And a nice photo of the correct maker's mark. Note that the moon is a simple punched silhouette.

[PaulHD]

Congratulations, Rick;
I was the only other bidder on that. I thought it was real and, cased, a bargain too. Alas, I was so busy watching the Rose
Bowl, I forgot to check it last nite. Enjoy! that's a nice one.

Regards, Paul

[Mike Dunn]

How many children did you have to sell to pay all the fees? Nice looking badge. Mike

[stogieman]

Ahhh yes, the fees.....

.... even after adding in all fees, penalties, taxes, shipping fees, handling fees, Kansas City Slaughterhouse taxes and bring to the mail station fees...... it was still a steal.....

[stogieman]

Note!

This badge does not have a crown mark! I wouldn't buy one unless I could get it for $25.00 or less.

[Tony & Kaiser]

A touch harsh?

Rick,
I have to say that I completely confused by the venomous "anti-crown on Juncker badges" debate. I want to clarify first, that my Juncker's all have no crown marks and are 1st war pieces. I agree that a piece with a crown seems to indicate that it is post 1919 manufacture, probably 1930s or so. BUT, I cannot see why a crown marked piece would not still have a high value. If you have a 1st war piece (no crown) and a post-war original one, (with crown) they are both Junckers. They are both (originals) of extremely high quality. Regardless if it war-time or 1930s, they are both privately purchased, superb quality, beautiful badges. You are saying that if you have a crown marked Juncker's it is not worth $25. But can you show me a high quality German made silver badge, Third Reich era that is worth only $25? Its not going to happen. These are beautiful badges and have value. If you want an Imperial one, go with no crown, it should cost you more. If you like the Nazi era stuff, fine. Then get one with a crown stamp, but it should still be worth at least $350 and up. Regardless, just make sure you get a real one. Just my two cents. Tony http://www.kaisersbunker.com

[Eric Stahlhut]

Another observation

Is that all pieces rendered in silver were most likely private purchase pieces anyhow. Not disbursed by the gov't at large.
Look for hollow-stamped iron or steel or even nonmagnetic examples as true pilot badges. IMO, anyways, for what that may be worth....

[stogieman]

I agree, to a point...

I agree 100% with Eric that the actual issue badges for both Bavaria and Prussia were stamped steel, with either silver or nickel-silver plating. These are the actual awarded badges and came in a plain, manila envelope, as did most of the official-issue pieces.
The silver badges were all private purchase items.
The silver badges with NO crown mark are definately made pre-1919.
Crown Mark Badges are post 1920 manufacture, but how post?
1921, 1931, 1951, 1981????
WHY would a Nazi-German era maker use a Prussian Royal silver mark that they DID NOT use during the monarchy????
These facts are way to inconsistent for me to consider buying any of these crown-mark badges.
Once upon a time, many years ago, I owned an extensive grouping of Pilot Badges, Observer Badges, both Prussian and Bavarian. Imagine my dismay when I mailed the complete collection to Germany for an insurance valuation and was told every single piece was fake.
Every Prussian badge had the crown mark, were of extremely high quality, and guess what, fake!
Every Bavarian Badge was marked for Poelath, Silber and Schrobenhausen and guess what, fake!
I lost thousands of dollars.
Literally.
I have seen literally HUNDREDS of Prussian badges with Crown Marks in the last 6 years. I have seen a total of 8 without, including badges with "moon 800" or no marks at all, that I could get agreement from Detlev Niemann that they were the real deal.
So, my pretties, you can buy what you like and pay whatever you think these badges are worth, but one fact remains the same. Not one single badge that can be traced directly to a recipient, or his family, had the crown mark on it.
So Here we go:
You are trying to use the logic that Juncker mysteriously started using a Prussian Monarchy hallmark that they DID NOT USE pre-1918, in the post 1920 era.
So, buy what you like and pay what you will, and be happy!

PS: Tony, how many WW2 guys do you know that will cheerfully pay thousands of dollars for post-war made "wearer's copies" "replacements", whatever???

PPS: Of the 40-50 engraved badges that were sold from a mysterious Washington-State collection this year, how many did you guys buy?

PPPS: Here's an engraved one sold by Detlev Niemann today:

[Tony & Kaiser]

Look at the 'whole" badge. Not just the crown.

Hi Rick,

Seeing as you addressed me directly, and I love a good debate..........

I am on-line with you and Eric that the actual issue badges for both Bavaria and Prussia were stamped steel, with either silver or nickel-silver plating and that silver (or brass badges silver-plated) were all private purchase items. No badge marked with a crown can be considered 1st War.

You have a point, I have no idea exactly when the Crown appeared as a mark on post 1919 badges, but seeing as the crown appeared on china and other manufactured purchase items in the inter-war years, it does not surprise me at all that a crown would be used at some point after the war. An indication of a tie-back to the Imperial era perhaps? But this is just conjecture, it would be helpful to find some hard facts.

Would I buy a badge with a crown-mark? No.
Do I own any? No.
Do I think that some could be original post-1919? Quite possible.

I was also burned horribly by fake Nazeee badges when I was in my early 20s back in 1980. I lost about 5K so I can sympathize how you felt.

You asked me Rick "how many WW2 guys do you know that will cheerfully pay thousands of dollars for post-war made "wearer's copies". I know of many. Its called getting ripped-off. The Nazi badge forum is full of them, desperately looking for confirmation that a fake they bought on good faith is real.

I see a huge difference between the inter-war years 1920 to 1945 when Imperial badges were worn and purchased inter-mixed with the Third Reich, and the post 1945 era.

And of the 40-50 engraved badges that were sold from a mysterious Washington-State collection this year, no, I did not buy a single one. They were all, except two, in my opinion, fakes. The crown mark on most of these badges is peripheral. It was the quality, the poor casting, the cast marks, the horrible soldering, the poor detail. All of these factors point to replicas. Not just a little tiny crown. But for some reason, makers of these fake badges seem to insist that they hammer a clear and proud crown on it. I for one, am not complaining. Tony http://www.kaisersbunker.com

[stogieman]

Re: continuing onward....

.... with this excellent debate!
The PPS regarding the engraved badges was a shot at everybody out there, not directly at you Tony.
Now, regarding the crown vs. other factors. I have seen really crappy-made badges with crowns. I have seen really well-made badges with the crown.
The instant give-away, IMO, is the crown mark.
You cannot find any Juncker items made pre-1919 with a crown mark.
The most visible use of the crown mark was by Wagner & Sohne, on their railway badges, honor goblets, and occasionally to be found on Hohenzollern Knight's Crosses.
I have also seen the Crown mark used on Hohenzollerns by "FR"
I have found the crown mark on Wagner (original) 1914 repeat bars for the 1870 EK2. BUT, we do not find a crown mark on any (original) 1870 EK1's. Nor do we EVER see a Godet piece with this crown mark.
So, I will clarify my opinions as follows:
ANY Juncker Imperial Flight Badge with the crown mark is FAKE.
Period, end of story for me.
Imperial Flight Badges with the "moon, crown, 800" marks BUT no C.E. Juncker Hallmark MIGHT (big emphasis) have been made by Wagner pre-/post- WW1. But I would sure like some HARD facts as opposed to the rubbish speculation that this is true.
I cannot recall ever seeing a Wagner Catalogue, so I don't know if they ever made flight badges, or not.
BUT, Wagner not only used the moon, crown, 800; they always used it with their NAME stamped in as well. I have never seen a single badge (flight) marked this way for Wagner.
So, that still leaves us with one hard fact, Issue badges and private-purchase badges, made pre-1919, had no crowns.
Now, 1920-1934, the "anything goes" free-for-all with no rigid enforcement of regulations, would be the only era when these crown badges could have been made and considered "real". BUT, there are hundreds and hundreds of them around, way too suspicious for me. There simply were not that many airmen left.
And again, I find it highly unlikely that Juncker would start using a mark they never used before 1919, during this era.

Now, regarding the post ww2 "wearer copy" thing. My point is, there is an entire industry out there devoted to nurturing and harboring the notion that the 78 winners of the PLM 1914-1918 needed thousands of "wearer's copies" to survive on a daily basis, I mean, Mein Gott, they fell out of the planes so easily! Same deal with these crown mark badges.
If these are truly "wearer copies" can you name one group of material, that came direct from the family of either a WW1, OR carry-over WW2 flyer, that has a crown mark?
So, the guys buying the bogus WW2 stuff THINK they are buying original, period items.
The poor schlob buying "wearer copies" of PLM's, Bavarian Bravery Medals (although I do know of one actual, real wearer copy here), Pilot Badges, Observer Badges, etc. ARE being GROOMED to accept that outright FAKES, are acceptable.

[stogieman]

A PS for Tony

I am having a seriously hard time focusing here when all I can see in my mind is Heather Locklear naked, wearing a Pickelhauben...

[Rick Research]

I'm on the fence with the Marks Issue(s). That is why I would like 2003 to be the year we here get together the BEST information, experience, and cooperation we can, for a permnanet website article here like all the nazty zinky ones, only on WW1 Flying Badges.

Incredibly, that has NEVER BEEN DONE!!!!

I will ask Seba to put up a "sticky" on this subject, begging, pleading, for contributions: if we can do a UNIFORM STANDARD in scans: x200% obverse and reverse of full badges, with x500% for closeups (ALL types and makers of German WW1 flying badges) we will be doing the collecting community as well as ourselves a giant service.

Observations on marks:

a moon and crown together is NOT an immediate indication of skullduggery. Wagner made Prussian railways long service brooches with the two marks together for decades before WW1.

Juncker does not seem to have-- before 1919. I agree, that seems fairly solidly established.

Interlude for Moderator "Senior Moment." Theme from "Waltz of the Toreadors" Warning! IGNORE following statement: see next page!!! But Juncker most assuredly DID use the crown and moon mark after WW1-- they were using it on their WW2 silver Luftwaffe Honor Goblets.

WHY their switch? Who knows!!! But it WAS used by them, and pre-1946. Whew! OK, we now resume Non Senile Programming!!!

I'm with Tony on the issue of "1916 or 1926?" To me, the reson we don't find many ISSUE badges is the owners ditched them as soon as they had some spare cash in the 19320s (AFTER the '23 Inflation, before the Depression struck again...), and they then quite happily wore there "1925" badges for the rest of their lives.

You bet it makes a difference 1938... or 1958. But to me, anyway, it's a lot less of an "issue" "1916 or 1926."