Am I the only who sees this? the flight badge casting flaw

[Tony & Kaiser]

I have mentioned this in a few threads going back several years, but it gets brushed by. So I'll start a thread on it.

There are a lot of flight badges out there that have the identical casting flaw on the reverse by the indent for the crown. I have seen Bayern examples marked Karl P******246;llath and Carl Poellath. I have seen Preu******223;en examples marked Juncker. When it is as absurd as the "Balloonist badge" no-one seems to mind saying its bad, but when it is a Pilots or Observers badge, they show up as real. Usually with some ridiculous crude engraving to a Jasta or named to Boelcke or someone.

I am the only one who finds it odd when badges with different maker marks have identical flaws?

When I collected Third Reich (yes yes, I admit it) if I had found a Nazi war badge, with two different makers that came from the same die, that means someone other than the maker, making the same badge but adding on different makers to satisfy Joe-public collector.

So how can badges from two countries, from three different makers, all have the same casting flaw on the back? This has been obvious to me for years, why does no-one else mention it?




There are many other features I do not like about these badges, but the casting flaw sticks out like a flashing light on a cop car. But, flight badges are like religion. A person can believe what they want. This is only my opinion.

Tony http://www.kaisersbunker.com

[Don D.]

Sorry Tony but I must have missed your previous postings. I am only a closet Imperialiod. You are correct though, if the same "flaw" is showing up on unrelated articles (by maker) then something is rotten.
Don

[gregM]

Tony,
I don't remember the previous posts BUT in my mind, different manufactures should not have the same die flaw. Seams kind of fishy to me. I am surprised that Rick was not all over this. I feal he was our resident aviation badge expert.

The TR guys go nuts over die flaws and frame, beading charactaristics. I think we in Imperial need to pay more attention to this as we see more and more imperial fakes. I tried to get some discussion going just last week about EK1 frame beading with zero (0) response. The only real discussion I can remember about die flaws and such was the 1870 EK
"9th bead" discussion from a few years ago.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Greg

[Don D.]

Greg/Tony- I think it is because many Imperial collectors have long thought this was a relatively "safe" area for collecting. I have yet to see an imperial piece recieve the same scrutiny that a TR peice does. Surely fakers have noted the same.
Don

[gregM]

I forgot about the thread concerning the 1914 spange to the 1870 ek2. We did take some pretty close looks at those.

Don,
I think you are right on. Most people think it is a safe area PLUS for the most part the expense is considerably less. If I were dropping $15,000 on a knights cross or a PLM for that matter I would look pretty hard at it too.
I'm cheap. I have to be. I have a very small budget and spent several months unemployed so when I bought my Godet EK1, I looked a things very closely. ( $500 to me is a fortune ) What I learned is that Godet EK1s have a very unique frame and if you know what to look for they can be easily spotted. Kind of like the S-L die flaws the knights cross guys look at.

all for now,
Greg

[LeeM]

Revealing photoTony. Could you post the others with different makers mark (or give us a link to your prior threads)?

[quote=gregM]. I am surprised that Rick was not all over this. I feal he was our resident aviation badge expert.

"was"? Is he gone?

[Brian S]

I too never saw this thread. Great work Tony. Ever the perfectionist you would spot this.

[VtwinVince]

I've seen a thread on this before, and the pin well on that badge is not correct and does not match known originals.

[regular122]

Tony,

You are dead on with this flaw. Lots of discussion on this over at the GMIC. Rick, aka Stogieman, has pointed this out several times. Juncker and Meybauer badges have deep crownwells with no flaw. While I don't own one of the badges, I have never seen an original one with this flaw. Good to bring it out. Steve

[Sonderkommando]

Steve,
I can't find the discussion on this over at GMIC. Can you post a link?

Thanks,
Brett

[regular122]

Brett,

Here is a page that shows what a good Juencker crown well should look like and also Juencker cases.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12772

Here is a fake being discussed on crown well shape:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopi...&hl=Crown+well

And here is one that discusses the flaw mentioned like on the badge in this thread.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopi...&hl=Crown+well

These have some great pointers for all types of makes. Most of the hollowed-weep hole fakes show this crown well flaw regardless of manufacture. Here is a pic below showing side-by-side. Forgive me Tony, but I think the pic on the left may be from your site as well. I can't remember but since you started the thread, I am hoping you won't mind the excerpt!

Hope this helps, Steve

[Tony & Kaiser]

No problem Steve. That is in fact, my Karl P******246;llath from my Flight Badge page. I should add, that you photo should not say "probably good", it should say "original" as the differences are painfully obvious. Except for those that unfortunately own one with the casting flaw of course....... Every collector who has seen in person the original Bayern badges I have, no longer have any doubt what is good and what is not.

Funny how this thread came back. I started it here, and then it was picked up by the guys posting at the GMC or what-ever it is called. At any rate, I am not a member as I do not agree with that jerk-off religious freak that calls himself "The Chairman" who runs it. No thanks....

[regular122]

Thanks Tony. The 'probably good' comments were meant to be 'tongue in cheek.' You've got some real beauties. The Poellath badges are a mystery to me at any rate because of the spelling, etc. But that is a different thread entriely! Thanks for starting this one. I am sure all can benefit from the flaw pics. Steve

[Sonderkommando]

Hi Steve,
Thanks for posting the links to the other discussions on the flight badges.....

The makers mark on the Pollath badges was the subject of a huge discussion a few years ago on the WAF, and when it was all said and done, I have a huge respect for Tony's (and Kaisers!) knowledge on these badges.

This casting flaw is interesting, and seeing it on both the Prussian and Bavarian badges certainly confirms that something is "not right". Needless to say, I wont be buying a badge with the flaw on the back.


Cheers,
Brett

[Claudius]

and the "good" ones are scarce too...

I've been trying to find a original, cupcake hinge-well bav. badge to put in my legit box for some time now. If anyone knows of a dealer with one for sale....

danke