Fr W Iron Cross 1st Variation

[Doug See]

Here's an EK marked Fr W. There has been some discussion about whether this was a subcontracted EK1 by Friedlander by Wagner, or vice versa. To my eye, it differs in many ways from examples of either Fr OR W crosses. Any ideas or information on who or what this maker mark stood for?

[Doug See]

reverse

[Doug See]

Mm

[Rich G]

Doug

First I have seen with the additional W mark. Very nice but I don't know the significance.

Rich

[Daniel Murphy]

The point is, that on the Ek maker list "Fr" is attributed to Friedlander and "W" is attributed to Wagner. So the question is did the two firms collaborate with each other in some way in making these (and or other medals, orders) or is this another totally different maker. My point on the other forum was that Friedlander made a PLM virtually identical to Wagners piece so there may be some collaoration between the two firms to fill their orders, contracts etc. This piece however looks nothing like a Wagner EK 1 or EK 2 that are in my collection. It looks more like a KO than anything. Does anyone have a Friedlander to compare. I think that would clear things up.
Dan Murphy

[joe campbell]

i agree regarding the KO appearance.

the numbers are so... well,, SCRAWNY appearing
when compared to other manufacturers.

thank you, doug, for this interesting piece.
i wonder if a confirmed association will ever be made.

dan's presumption certainly seems p;ausible.
i just wish there was a wey to confirm it.

joe

[franki]

Hello,

here comes as requested a Friedländer EK, front and reverse.

Best Franki

[gregM]

I think that Franki's EK and Dougs are pretty close. Neither picture is real clear. It is hard to make out the detail of the crowns. HOWEVER if you look at the dates, The 4 looks the same on both and is kind of unique. The gap between the upper and lower legs is quite wide on theses crosses. (More of a gap than any of my other EKs) and also more of a gap than on my Fr EK2.

[Daniel Murphy]

Ok, here is a photo of the Friedlander on the left and the Fr W on the right. Now we have to acknowledgre that one was taken in sunlight which left some shadows and the other was taken with a flash which left shadows on the bottom of the details. Also bear in mind the the Fr W has received much more wear than the other. I don't know about the rest of you but it looks d*man close to me. Same cross hatching in the center corners, same outer corners on the beading, size and spacing on the crown and W and 1914. The second 1 meets the back of the 9 on both, both 4's look the same, serifs are the same(with shadows on the left remember).
Dan Murphy

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

I see collector headscratching over incestuous 1914 EK1s is back on the agenda - great, I love this sort of stuff!

First up, let's make sure everyone is talking about "Fr." and not "FR" - I think we are so far but this point is always good to clarify.

From my own experience, I have not seen a purely "W" (incuse relief or otherwise) stamped EK1 - anybody got one to share?

Daniel, I agree that the two EK1s you've pictured side-by-side bear a striking (if not exact) resemblance, but comparing two Fr crosses does not link anything to any Wagner crosses.

Now, some more info for the puzzle. My own Fr does NOT match the Fr or Fr+W examples in this thread. I can state 2 things though;

1) My Fr matches one of my three WS (Wagner & Sohn) variants, &
2) The Fr examples shown so far in this thread match my S-W (Sy & Wagner) EK1. I've owned several S-Ws in the past but currently only have one example - they had all had the same core, hence I only kept one example.

I can generate pics later if required.

Regards
Mike K

[Daniel Murphy]

Now here are the backs. Notice the base of the hinge is vitually identical on both. Differences are rounding of the pin on top. Different placement of the catch which resulted in a shorter pin. This could be attributed to differences in finishing by the various workmen who made the crosses

[Daniel Murphy]

Dang Mike,
Now you gone and done it. Just kidding, The EK maker list (a al Tony and Kaiser, Jens, etc.) lists "W" as Wagner and Sohn Berlin. I noticed this and told the Fr. W owners and got the whole ball rolling. Now, I got out my S-W Sy and Wagner and the front matches the Fr W. to a T. The pin is entirely different though. My WS is not even close, different crown and more widely spaced numbers. The major Players in EK's, Wagner and Sohn, Sy and Wagner, and Friedlander just had bits and pieces of their stuff all over. Anybody have a 1918 phone book from Berlin? Maybe they were all right next door to each other . I give up, sometimes the more you try to answer a question, the more questions you leave unanswered.
OK, so where are you "W" owners? You might as well chime in too.
Dan Murphy

[Doug See]

Hmmm....my Fr is also different than my Fr W. More like a Wagner as mentioned by Mike.

Soooo.....this means that perhaps all EK's were made by three or four clans of Tyrolean elves who sold them to various jewelers, who in turn stamped them with their own brand mark. I really need to get a life instead of obsessing over these things.....

I may have missed the answer to this earleir. but are FR and Fr two different makers?

[gregM]

I have always thought that FR and Fr were different manufactures.