To The Imperial Aviation Collectors

[stogieman]

A rather stunning reversal of a previously published treatise has just been made:

http://www.medalnet.net/pandis.htm

Know thy subject

[Mike Kenny]

A rather stunning reversal of a previously published treatise has just been made

I can only agree re the reversal - takes guts to say you might have been wrong.

I have to thank Robert for all the additional research and footwork that must be behind the revised article.

I'm sure there will be some very unhappy collectors out there after reading it though.

Regards
Mike K

[Tony & Kaiser]

Hmm, closer, but commercial silverware is not medals and awards, even if the award was privately purchased. Commercial German silver from the period bears a crown mark and the Imperial Order 16 July 1884 is well documented. Granted, only Wagner stamped some (not all) of their awards such as the EK1 with a silver content crown. No-one else seemed to do this as far as I know.

But over 145,000 awarded silver 1914 EK1 and who-knows how many purchased silver EK1 are not crown marked. Nor are the Meybauer flight badges, or the Karl P******246;llath, badges etc etc for that matter.

If anything, the crown seems to appear more often after 1918, on commercial silverware as well as items such as Nazi Luftwaffe flight goblets as a silver hallmark. So any claim that the crown was only a pre-1918 Imperial mark is in my opinion, simply incorrect.

The Poellath and P******246;llath issue to me, is over due to the research at the city hall in Schrobenhausen by the archivist.

Public and heartfelt thumbs-up to Mr. Pandis for his work and time towards a very difficult and frustrating area of collecting.

[Mike Kenny]

The Poellath and Pöllath issue to me, is over due to the research at the city hall in Schrobenhausen by the archivist.

Hi Tony,

Do you have a link to that research?

Regards
Mike K

[Tony & Kaiser]

Do you have a link to that research?

Hi Mike.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...ad.php?t=20228

[Claudius]

The next question gentlemen, is who pays for these fakes? Should the dealer that sold the item take responsiblity and refund the money? Is that what "guaranteed for life" means?

As you can guess, I looked in my collection and found a badge that meets the above description. I kept good records and I purchased it in 1997 at a show. I could further set doubt against the piece after I got it home and it didn't fit in an empty Karl Poellath box. (I know the box is good because I got it through a local rummage sale for $1! Nobody is going to go through all the work of faking a box with the markings and impressions of a badge for $1.)

Any advice would be welcome.

[stogieman]

Hi Claudius, if you own one and have paper/receipts stating "lifetime guarantee" I think I would be running back to where it came from and pointing out the article. I would also be prepared for a huge argument from the seller.
But then, if he believes the piece to be authentic, he should have no trouble selling it at his 2005 price as opposed to his 1997 price, right?

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

What are the opinions as to how this will affect the value of the cliche-type issue and private unmarked cliche badges in the immediate and in the future? I guess my thinking is that since there sems to be massive amounts of fake private purchase pieces exposed, collectors may decide to pursue these types of badges as they are fairly easy to weed out the fake ones. If this happens, demand will go up, and we know what that will do to the price. Herein lies another avenue of profitable fakery in the cliche badges years down the road. Everything seems to come full circle in time.

[Claudius]

I agree, if the currently recognized fakes are gathered up, the remaining originals out there should go up in value.

In order to keep the fake manufacturers from being successful in adjusting their molds and construction techniques, all future buyers should insist on knowing the recent history of a badge, Where is came from, who owned it., etc. But I don't make the laws

I should clarify about my purchase. I didn't have a receipt produce, and I probably wouldn't have kept if I did. I only know I recorded when I purchased it, where, and from whom. (its a habit of mine) Unfortunately, I paid too much to get my money out of it as a well produced reproduction.

I want to give the dealer, (when I meet up with him) two options.
1) Full refund, or
2) Replace it with a two-piece construction Bavarian pilot badge that I agree is authentic.

I believe that I am in a tough fight either way. And I won't sell it to someone else who is unsuspecting.

[stogieman]

Perhaps I was hasty, I assumed we were speaking of a Prussian. Sorry if I missed you say Bavarian earlier. I would do nothing with a Bavarian at this point. That debate is way far from being settled!

[Claudius]

So let me understand what you're saying...The prussians in your discussion are problably fakes, however the Bavarians are still "questionable, but not decidedly fake?"

So your saying that my Bavarian may not be fake?

[Gary B]

Dear Claudius,

Personally I feel that the field of Aviation Imperial is becoming just too dangerous. Just like the crown/moon/800 debate there will be collectors and dealers who believe what they want to believe. Short of actual documentation being discovered I dont think the issue will ever be resolved. In the end these are all opinions. These opinions might be backed up by the fact that no older collection contain these types of pieces or that these good pieces coming directly from the vet are marked a certain way but it is not end all proof.

I have been a collector for a long time and have seen the debate over Imperial Avn go from bad to worse. Perosnally, I have changed my opinion but I know of many others who have not.

Gary B