Bavarian MVO question

[mravery]

Hello All,

I have a question to pose to the group...... concerning the Bavarian MVO....

The base MVO came in multiple classes (4 I think).... 4th and 3rd were breast badges..... 2rd was a commanders badge and 1st was the grand cross.....

They were awarded by the rank of the recipient......

My queston are.....

1) Were they automatically 'upgraded' upon the promotion of the officer.. i.e. a Colonel with an MVO 4th..... makes major general.. is he then automatically given the 3rd class... or did he need to 're-earn' the award again ?

2) In most of the pre-war and early war pictures I have seen...... many of the General's are wearing the MVO on the medal bar (3rd or 4th class).. without swords and then the MVO 2rd class with swords around the neck. Did the MVO follow the same 'regs' as say the RAO.. where-as with swords and without swords was counted as two different orders and could be worn at the same time ?

Cheers and thanks !
Mark

[landsknechte]

1) Were they automatically 'upgraded' upon the promotion of the officer.. i.e. a Colonel with an MVO 4th..... makes major general.. is he then automatically given the 3rd class... or did he need to 're-earn' the award again ?

2) In most of the pre-war and early war pictures I have seen...... many of the General's are wearing the MVO on the medal bar (3rd or 4th class).. without swords and then the MVO 2rd class with swords around the neck. Did the MVO follow the same 'regs' as say the RAO.. where-as with swords and without swords was counted as two different orders and could be worn at the same time ?

Cheers and thanks !
Mark

Different grades of the MVO/MVK were worn at the same time if the recipent moved up in rank. Adding a crown to a pre-existing MVO/MVK didn't count as a different grade, incidentally. Not sure about the swords vs. no-swords, though.

--Chris

[Wild Card]

Hi Mark,

While I can not accurately address your questions, I would like to clarify your understanding ( of the structure of the order. When the order was founded in 1866, it had five classes - grand cross, commander, knights 1st and 2nd class and members of the military merit cross. So your understanding of the “base MVO” is on the money; but by 1905, we have - grand cross, 1st class with star, 2nd class with and without star, officer’s cross, 3rd class, 4th class with and without crown and military merit cross 1st and 2nd class.

Of course it gets more complicated from there on and you can get into the time frames of with and without “flames” and swords and so on. What I’m saying is that all of the nuances make this one of the most complicated of the Imperial German orders.

Do not despair, a book has been in the works in Germany for several years which I can promise will tell us more than we could ever want to know about this order.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Daniel Murphy]

Mark,
I have a ribbon bar displayed in the Wiederholungspange thread that has a RAO on the statue ribbon. Next to the EK2, there is also a RAO on the war ribbon with crown and swords (it is RAO 3rd class. The crown has red enameling and the swords on RAO's were gold). Since the award with the crown is a higher grade of the order, both can be worn at the same time. Normally if a person recieved the 4th class of an award and then received say the 4th class with crown, the first award must be returned to the orders chancellery. If a bearer of the 4th class is awarded the 3rd class, they can wear both. If as a high ranking officer ,they are then awarded the 2nd and 1st class, they could wear all four in full dress. I hope this helps.
Dan Murphy