The by yearly gathering of the Holy Grail Club.

[Tom Y]

Tony's Prinzen

[gregM]

Very Nice That is the first prinzen 1813 that I have seen other than in books. Its nice to know that they actually do exsist.
Some day we need to teach Tony how to post pictures. Although I do feel honored by getting some of his outstanding photos.

[Tiger 1]

Thanks Tom!

Greg, It's not easy to teach and old dog new tricks.

I'm glad you like them. Enjoy!

Tony

[Blitz]

Guys, you really make me so proud of beign amoung you. There seems to be quite a few members in our small club and new ones also. Good. Keep them coming, I'm sensing that all of our members still haven't shown themselves..

[Tom Y]

I have my doubts about this one, but if it's not a "shaved" later Cross I'd put it closer to 1870 than 1813.

[joe campbell]

tom-

i agree re: the time period on the previous post.
do you have a shot of the joints? do they looked
altered?

joe

[Blitz]

Here is something I'm posting on Joe's behalf, enjoy.

[joe campbell]

thanks, antti!

from my friend william hamelman.

joe

[Biro]

...Here is my bandkreuz that I got from a local German family....Dan

That bandkreuz, if it is what it purports to be (no insinuation, just inbuilt caution..) - is one of the rarest things on the planet Dan!!!

Unbeleivable!!

Can you share any details of the history?

Marshall

[Blitz]

Those are some fine pieces Daniel!
I do have one consern, I have seen one Kulm kreuz in a "local" museum's collection amoung high end russian awards and I have to say that your's looks nothing like it. Do you have any history on it available? I know that there are differences amoung officer grade kulm kreuzes and certainly the situation is simular with the enlisted mans version, but still. It's a BIG difference. The one i've seen looks alot like an EK1 (since some officers were prolly issued with regular EKs).

[Daniel Murphy]

All,
I belong to a lutheran church in my town (right next door) and am friendly with some of the local families of german ancestry that belong to it. Most of them also know I collect military items as I have bought items from them in the past. While at the home of this particular family, I found the bandcross framed and hanging next to some other religous crosses. When I asked about it and explained it was a military item, my friend said they had found it in with some old family papers etc. and thought it to be a religous item of some kind. By the time I had left they had given it to me. All they could tell me was that it had apparently belonged to his fathers family (Schnoor Family) and that they came from Germany in the 1890's. Since they were not aware of what it is and had no motive such as to sell it, I can only assume it is genuine. It is very frayed and fragile as you can see.
The "kulm cross" as I called it is jeweler made. It appears to have been stamped from a hand made, hand engraved die. As you can see, no two corners are the same and the arms are odd lengths. I have not claimed it is an issue piece, but believe it to be a jeweler fabricated piece for a Russian officer. I purchased it from a very, very reputable dealer in Pennsylvania who had purchased an Iron Cross collection from an older man and had no idea what this was, but he knew it was old. I purchased it for $100 about 15 years ago. My understanding it that the generals involved in the Battle at Kulm did actually receive 1813 Iron Cross 1st Classes. Apparently King Leopold of Belgium's piece has been preserved.
The mini was purchased from a dealer in international medals at a show about 20 or so years ago for $75.
If the the collective experts of the forum believe any of these to be not original or not from the original period of use/ wear, I will remove them from this tread but not my collection. I realize and understand that some of these items are so scarce that it is very hard, if not impossible to compare them to other examples in order to prove originality.

Dan

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is one more,
Handmade lacquered wood, silver inlaid snuff box c. 1850. If you look closely you can see where each arm of the cross was made separately and then fitted together. See the seams in the inside corners. I wasn't gonna show you this one since it isn't actually an award. Have a nice day,
Dan

[Biro]

...If the the collective experts of the forum believe any of these to be not original or not from the original period of use/ wear, I will remove them from this tread but not my collection. I realize and understand that some of these items are so scarce that it is very hard, if not impossible to compare them to other examples in order to prove originality....Dan

Dan

No-one here (by their own admission) will be qualified to pass that kind of judgement on the particular pieces you exhibit... certainly I am not - but I can add that the bandkreuz compares extremely favourably to the pieces illustrated from the Max Aurich collection below.

Bandkreuz, like many cloth items, are impossible to 'authenticate' - so the proof of the pudding lies in the 'story' - and only you know whether it's truly accurate or not.

My opinion?.... Enjoy those wonderful pieces.

Marshall

[Blitz]

I thought as much and the russians were propably not so presice when making copies of those crosses. No problem. While I'm certainly not an expert on bandkreuzer, I believe your's to be a very very rare original one. At least that is what my gut and instincts are saying to me. More than enough for me to say that You are one lucky guy..

[joe campbell]

i have seen, in a private collection, three bandkreuzen.
i have little doubt that this would be the fourth in that
collection. it would certainly be welcome as the first in mine!

the officers Kulmerkreuz was "issued" aprroximately 600 times.
while it is a bit more substantial than the EM cross, it is
nowhere as nicely manufactured as yours. i suspect, as has
been indicated that you may have a private purchase piece.
it certainly would be hard to verify, but quite within the realm
of possibility for a ranking officer involved with Kulm.

very interesting pictures!

joe