(Garde) Maschinengewehr-Abteilung

[David Müldner]

Dear All,

Would anyone have photo's on these prussian army units (favourably with Tschako)?

Sellers PM me, anyone else is welcome to post them, as I am very curious how they look!

Thanks,

David

PS most of the literatur I have been able to find untill now speaks of Maschinengewehr-Kompagnien, would these be the same as the MGA's and what kind or role would an MGA play, an independent unit attached to a Korps, or maybe an part of a regiment?

[Bob Lembke]

MG Abteilung

Dear All,


PS most of the literatur I have been able to find untill now speaks of Maschinengewehr-Kompagnien, would these be the same as the MGA's and what kind or role would an MGA play, an independent unit attached to a Korps, or maybe an part of a regiment?

David, not an expert in MG, but, while "Abteilung" usually means "detachment", in the context of artillery it specifically meant "battalion". I suspect that a "MG Abteilung" might actually be a MG battalion. Also note that I think that MG units were often smaller than an infantry unit, at one time a MG company only had six MGs, and certainly was not 160 men. (I think they went up to 12 MGs.)

Bob Lembke

[David Müldner]

Thanks for your answer, Bob. In the mean time I have been able to find some Rang- and Dienstaltersliste of the Jäeger and Schützen truppe, which the MG belonged to. Maybe this info can give me more details on the subject.



I also found out that most of the GMGA as well as the MGA were attached to Infantry Regiments

GMGA1 to the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon
GMGA2 to the Garde-Schützen-Bataillon

for example. I also found the WWI history of MGA1 and MGA2.They are a bit outside my budget, but maybe I can have the library I found them in send ma copy!


PS If anyone would care to eleborate on the difference between Trupp, Zug, Abteilung and Kompanie, please do!

PSSA site I like to recommend on the subject of basic data on Regiments of all sorts (prussian army) is: http://wiki.genealogy.net/index.php/...mee/Regimenter

It is not complete yet, and maybe next to getting data from there some of you could fill in parts of the blancs!

[Bob Lembke]

Units

PS If anyone would care to eleborate on the difference between Trupp, Zug, Abteilung and Kompanie, please do!

David;

Clearly, on the basis of your findings, my guess that a Machinen=Gewehr=Abteilung might be a battalion-sized unit, based on the use of the word "Abteilung" in the artillery, was all wet. It must have been closer to a Zug. I imagine you have some or much German, and you know that many words in German will have three, or seven, or 12 meanings. Usually, in the context of the Imperial Army, Abteilung usually means "detachment", and usually implies a smaller rather than a larger "detachment", typically say 10 to 100 to 200 men, say, not an army corps.

Despite my first faux pas, I will try again. I will be a bit more comprehensive than you suggested.

Gruppe = a (infantry) squad (US) or file (UK?) Usually 8 privates commanded by a Gefreiter = a PFC or Lance Corporal (all enlisted ranks are not perfectly equivilant between armies.)

Trupp can mean three things, I think; they may differ by small variations in the word, e.g., Trupp vs. Truppe.
Trupp was the basic unit in the flame pioneers; usually 8 to 10 men; in a flame Zug of six Trupp three would be led by an Unteroffizier (sergeant), three by a Gefreiter. (Don't ask me why.) However, sometimes the flame troops spoke of a flame Trupp of four men with one light flame thrower.
Truppen means "troops", I believe.
Additionally, I think that Truppe could mean a small detachment.

Then the German infantry company had units called Korporalschaft, which was an administrative unit, not a tactical unit, i.e., not used on the battle field. In barracks men usually were housed one Korporalschaft in a large room called a Stube. (Yes, like in Bier-Stube.) A Korporalschaft was two Gruppen.

Zug was the platoon-sized unit, often a bit bigger than a platoon, say 60 men. These were 8 Gruppen, grouped into four Korporalschaft, in one Zug. I think in a flame unit there were six Truppen in a Zug.

Kompagnie of course was a company. The infantry Kompagnie had three Zug. I think that often the flame company had four Zug, possibly even a fifth absent Zug attached to a storm battalion.

As previously stated, Abteilung can mean, generally, a detachment of some size, but not very large, and, more specifically, it can mean an artillery battalion of three or four batteries, usually.

However, every branch varied more or less. The cavalry was very different.

Also, lots of these things changed during the war, often radically.

Note: This is a discussion of units, not a grammar lesson. Above I have generally not correctly converted the singular (e.g., Zug) to its plural. I have never studied German, and taught myself to read it over the last three years, no books, no teachers, no nuttin. If you want a German lesson, go to Berlitz.

Hope this is useful. Everything about the Deutsches Heer of the Kaiserszeit was complicated. A main reason why it was so interesting. If you want something less nuanced, study the Mexican banditos.

Bob Lembke

[David Müldner]

woow

Hi Bob!


Thanks for your extended answer, I will study it on my way back home, as I am at the office now.

David;

Clearly, on the basis of your findings, my guess that a Machinen=Gewehr=Abteilung might be a battalion-sized unit, based on the use of the word "Abteilung" in the artillery, was all wet. It must have been closer to a Zug. I imagine you have some or much German, and you know that many words in German will have three, or seven, or 12 meanings. Usually, in the context of the Imperial Army, Abteilung usually means "detachment", and usually implies a smaller rather than a larger "detachment", typically say 10 to 100 to 200 men, say, not an army corps.

Despite my first faux pas, I will try again. I will be a bit more comprehensive than you suggested.

Gruppe = a (infantry) squad (US) or file (UK?) Usually 8 privates commanded by a Gefreiter = a PFC or Lance Corporal (all enlisted ranks are not perfectly equivilant between armies.)

Trupp can mean three things, I think; they may differ by small variations in the word, e.g., Trupp vs. Truppe.
Trupp was the basic unit in the flame pioneers; usually 8 to 10 men; in a flame Zug of six Trupp three would be led by an Unteroffizier (sergeant), three by a Gefreiter. (Don't ask me why.) However, sometimes the flame troops spoke of a flame Trupp of four men with one light flame thrower.
Truppen means "troops", I believe.
Additionally, I think that Truppe could mean a small detachment.

Then the German infantry company had units called Korporalschaft, which was an administrative unit, not a tactical unit, i.e., not used on the battle field. In barracks men usually were housed one Korporalschaft in a large room called a Stube. (Yes, like in Bier-Stube.) A Korporalschaft was two Gruppen.

Zug was the platoon-sized unit, often a bit bigger than a platoon, say 60 men. These were 8 Gruppen, grouped into four Korporalschaft, in one Zug. I think in a flame unit there were six Truppen in a Zug.

Kompagnie of course was a company. The infantry Kompagnie had three Zug. I think that often the flame company had four Zug, possibly even a fifth absent Zug attached to a storm battalion.

As previously stated, Abteilung can mean, generally, a detachment of some size, but not very large, and, more specifically, it can mean an artillery battalion of three or four batteries, usually.

However, every branch varied more or less. The cavalry was very different.

Also, lots of these things changed during the war, often radically.

Note: This is a discussion of units, not a grammar lesson. Above I have generally not correctly converted the singular (e.g., Zug) to its plural. I have never studied German, and taught myself to read it over the last three years, no books, no teachers, no nuttin. If you want a German lesson, go to Berlitz.

Hope this is useful. Everything about the Deutsches Heer of the Kaiserszeit was complicated. A main reason why it was so interesting. If you want something less nuanced, study the Mexican banditos.

Bob Lembke

[AOK4]

Thanks for your answer, Bob. In the mean time I have been able to find some Rang- and Dienstaltersliste of the Jäeger and Schützen truppe, which the MG belonged to. Maybe this info can give me more details on the subject.



I also found out that most of the GMGA as well as the MGA were attached to Infantry Regiments

GMGA1 to the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon
GMGA2 to the Garde-Schützen-Bataillon

for example. I also found the WWI history of MGA1 and MGA2.They are a bit outside my budget, but maybe I can have the library I found them in send ma copy!


PS If anyone would care to eleborate on the difference between Trupp, Zug, Abteilung and Kompanie, please do!

PSSA site I like to recommend on the subject of basic data on Regiments of all sorts (prussian army) is: http://wiki.genealogy.net/index.php/...mee/Regimenter

It is not complete yet, and maybe next to getting data from there some of you could fill in parts of the blancs!

Hello David,

What you're telling here is not true.

A Maschinen-Gewehr-Abteilung was the machine gun unit of a cavalry division in the beginning of the war. GMGA 1 belonged to the Garde-Kavallerie-Division, GMGA 2 belonged to the 4. Kavallerie-Division.

A published history of either Garde-Maschinen-Gewehr-Abteilung is unknown to me, MGA 1 and MGA 2 had one though.

As MG troops the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon would have had a Maschinen-Gewehr-Kompagnie, which was called MGK des GJB (and similar for the Garde-Schützen-Bataillon).

Jan

[David Müldner]

I cannot remember linking my data to the war. The information I have is from Rangliste from 1901-1903 only. So on the war I never gave any data, bacause I simply do not have them. So before saying I am lying....

http://www.preussenweb.de/infjaeger.htm hope this source will satisfy your curiousity

Hello David,

What you're telling here is not true.

A Maschinen-Gewehr-Abteilung was the machine gun unit of a cavalry division in the beginning of the war. GMGA 1 belonged to the Garde-Kavallerie-Division, GMGA 2 belonged to the 4. Kavallerie-Division.

A published history of either Garde-Maschinen-Gewehr-Abteilung is unknown to me, MGA 1 and MGA 2 had one though.

As MG troops the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon would have had a Maschinen-Gewehr-Kompagnie, which was called MGK des GJB (and similar for the Garde-Schützen-Bataillon).

Jan

[AOK4]

I cannot remember linking my data to the war. The information I have is from Rangliste from 1901-1903 only. So on the war I never gave any data, bacause I simply do not have them. So before saying I am lying....

Sorry, I just meant that this attachment was not the case during the war.

I cannot find any published history of either unit though, either from before or during the war.

Jan

[Trossknecht]

Machinegun units - "Abteilung" and Company

The confusion between the machinegun "Abteilungen" and machinegun companies of the pre-war German Army is, in part, a function of their history. Before 1905 or so, the machinegun "Abteilungen" were the only regularly constituted mobile machinegun units of the German Army. They thus served both as experimental units and as general-purpose machine-gun units, to be employed within the framework of cavalry formations, army corps or infantry divisions. In 1905 or so, the decision was taken to raise separate machine-gun companies for service with infantry divisions. As a result, the "Abteilungen" strengthened their connection to the cavalry. (There was still much discussion, however, of employing the "Abteilungen" in the manner of the horse artillery batteries that had been removed from the wartime order of battle of army corps by the artillery reform of 1899.)
Between 1905 and 1914, the machinegun companies began to multiply, with the companies assigned to divisions splitting in order to form brigade companies and the brigade companies splitting to provide regimental companies. This process, which had the advantage of facilitating the thorough training of peace-time machinegunners, created a time lag where the provision of a large number of trained machine-gunners to the reserve. Thus, mobilisation found several reserve regiments without machine-gun companies.
The difference in organization between machinegun "Abteilungen" and machinegun companies was largely a matter of mobility. That is to say, both types of units were equipped with six machineguns. The Abteilungen, however, had a larger number of horses. These allowed the unit as a whole to keep up with horse cavalry formations, as well as to serve as a corps-level "fire brigade."

[Trossknecht]

Trupp and Truppe

"Trupp" and "Truppe" are different words that, like the English words "principal" and "principle," were derived separately from the same foreign root.

"Trupp" is a masculine word that simply refers to a small unit. Its plural is "Trupps."

"Truppe" is a feminine word that has a number of meanings. Its plural is "Truppen."

One meaning of "Truppe" is "unit of any size." Thus, "Truppengeschichte" is "unit history."

Another meaning of "Truppe" is "soldiers employed in formed bodies." Thus, the famous phrase "Truppe schiesst nicht auf Truppe" means "Formed bodies of [German] soldiers do not shoot at other formed bodies of [German] soldiers." (The phrase comes from the refusal of Hans von Seekt to employ units under his command to confront units taking part in an attempted coup d'etat.)

A third meaning of "Truppe" is "combined arms formations." Thus, "Truppenfuehrung" is not "troop leadership" but the "leading of combined arms formations." Likewise, "der Truppenfuehrer" is the commander of a combined arms formation, whether it be a detachment formed of an infantry regiment and some artillery batteries or a complete army corps.

A fourth meaning, which I have only seen in the plural, refers to soldiers in general. Thus, the "Sturmtruppen" were either the soldiers who took part in a particular assault or the units in which they served.

[Trossknecht]

More on pre-war machinegun units

A detailed overview of the creation of machine-gun units in the German Army before World War I was provided by an article that was published in a German military journal in 1940. (The citation is: Runnebaum, “Die Entwickelung der Maschinengewehre”, Wehrtechnische Monatshefte, 1940, pp. 25-32.)

The following chart is derived from that article, with figures verified by comparison with those in a number of other reliable works. (These include Curt Jany, Geschichte der Preußischen Armee vom 15. Jahrhundert bis 1914, pp. 304-5 and Hermann Heiden, Gewehre Frei, Weg und Ruhm der Maschinengewehrwaffe, p. 29.)

The following table shows the number of machinegun units serving with the German Army in the two decades before 1914. The first column after the date shows "Abteilungen." The second shows infantry machinegun companies. The third shows fortress machinegun companies. The fourth column after the date column shows the formations to which machinegun units were assigned. (That is, Abteilungen were either experimental units are assigned to cavalry divisions. Infantry machinegun companies start out as army corps assets and end up as regimental assets.


1898 2 Experimental
1899 6 Experimental
1900 12 Experimental
1901 12 Cavalry Divisions
1902 13 Cavalry Divisions
1903 15 Cavalry Divisions
1904 16 Cavalry Divisions
1905 16 Cavalry Divisions
1906 16 4 Cavalry Divisions/Army Corps
1907 16 19 Cavalry Divisions/Army Corps
1908 16 61 Cavalry Divisions/Infantry Divisions
1909 16 101 Cavalry Divisions/Infantry Brigades
1910 16 108 Cavalry Divisions/Infantry Brigades
1911 16 108 Cavalry Divisions/Infantry Brigades
1912 14 113 Cavalry Divisions/Infantry Brigades
1913 11 234 15 Cavalry Divisions/Infantry Regiments

[Trossknecht]

More on pre-war machinegun units

A detailed overview of the creation of machine-gun units in the German Army before World War I was provided by an article that was published in a German military journal in 1940. (The citation is: Runnebaum, “Die Entwickelung der Maschinengewehre”, Wehrtechnische Monatshefte, 1940, pp. 25-32.)

The following chart is derived from that article, with figures verified by comparison with those in a number of other reliable works. (These include Curt Jany, Geschichte der Preußischen Armee vom 15. Jahrhundert bis 1914, pp. 304-5 and Hermann Heiden, Gewehre Frei, Weg und Ruhm der Maschinengewehrwaffe, p. 29.)

The following tables show the number of machinegun units serving with the German Army in the two decades before 1914. The table shows "Abteilungen." the second table shows infantry machinegun companies.

Maschinengewehr Abteilungen

1898 2
1899 6
1900 12
1901 12
1902 13
1903 15
1904 16
1905 16
1906 16
1907 16
1908 16
1909 16
1910 16
1911 16
1912 14
1913 11

Infantry Machinegun Companies

1906 4 Assigned to Army Corps
1907 19 Assigned to Army Corps
1908 61 Assigned to Infantry Divisions
1909 101 Assigned to Infantry Brigades
1910 108 Assigned to Infantry Brigades
1911 108 Assigned to Infantry Brigades
1912 113 Assigned to Infantry Brigades
1913 234 Assigned to Infantry Regiments

[David Müldner]

Thanks

Hi Trossknecht and others!

Thanks for so many detailed data, it is really fascinating. I never really got the Trupp thing, but I understand more of it know!!

Thanks again!

David M