German Ribbon Bars with WW1 Turkish "Front" Spangen

[Rick Research]

The League of the Two Rickies met today, and here are two nifty ribbon bars on top that Stogie-Rick got for me at two Friday's ago Niemann Update.

The Bavarian officer appears to be a WW2 "z.V." recalled type who exchanged his old Imperial Long Service Cross for the Wehrmacht equivalents as regulations insisted. I don't find him in a Reichsheer Rangliste. Maybe he went into the Polizei under the Weimar Republic, and thus had continuous long service. Dunno.

I have a suspect for the middle bar, which is on navy blue backing: Marinestabsarzt (NOT Dr. med.) Ludwig Reinhold, born 1885, navy 1904-1919, in Turkey July 1915 until war's end, and then disappears as a char. Mar.-Oberstabsarzt, alive 1930 and unknown anything else.

The lower bar was previously posted over on International, where Dave Danner deciphered the Front bar on its TWM ribbon as for Palestine. I will post closeups of the bars on today's new goodies, so Dave can see them more clearly than they appeared on the Update scans.

[Rick Research]

Here are closeups of the Front bars. The two on the Bavarian ribbon bar are the same-- tarnish on the second one makes it look like there are more squiggles than there really are.

For a Big View of ALL my "Turkish" ribbon bars, see the new Collections Forum, added to thread on Third Reich ribbon bars.

[Dave Danner]

The top two are both "qanaal" for the Suez Canal. The bottom one looks less clear than it did in the earlier scans. There, it looked like "qaarah deniz", or Karadeniz, the Black Sea. Here, it looks more like "qaarah rad" or something similar. Where is Tim Tezer when you need him?

[Rick Research]

OK, how about enlarged some more? Here's 500%

It still just looks like baby doodling with crayons to me!

I'm wondering, since these bars were presumably made in Germany by some as yet unknown company, whether they even accurately copied the original Turkish, or just made "close enough" squiggles?

[Klaus O.]

my Turkish ribbon bars

Rick,

I was also pretty lucky to get some German Imperial ribbon bars with Turkish medals. I really like either German ribbon bars or medal bars with foreign awards at the end... from an estetical point of view they give a bit more exotical flavour to the bars...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Daniel Krause]

You lucky ones!
Congratulations! Nice finds! Most impressive.

Best regards

Daniel

[Rick Research]

Hey Claudio! have you gotten these from Germany yet? If not, let me know when you do, if that WW2 one is on navy blue backing. There were only a handful of naval doctors who might have gotten mine or yours. I can't "confirm" any of them--but can narrow down some Prime Suspects.

Your bar's owner was probably on Goeben/Breslau/Loreley in 1914-- they tended to get the senior awards like the Imtiaz WITHOUT going up through the Liakat as normal.

Your upper bar is quite nice, but untraceable.

Will you start buying Turkish awards now?

Is that a Bottomless Collecting PIT I see there?

[Klaus O.]

Dear Rick,

Yes, I got them two days ago. Herewith I am posting to better images of them, also of the reverse. The backing is black, on both of them, or at least it seems so... you know, you can get confused with very dark blue.

The smaller bar is just great. I love the details on the "sabers". Really very nice indeed. This was bought by my brother, which is also quite a passionate ribbon bar collector. I got the second longer bar (6 ribbons). I am not completely happy with it. Actually the Schwertern-Auflage of the KVK 2. Klasse went off. The Turkish device with the sabers are quite loose. I could see from Detlev's picture that there was a hole, but I wasn't sure about it. I must say that I am quite attracted to German ribbon and medal bars with a the end odd or exotical foreign awards. They give more flavour to these bars, from an estetical point of view. Furthermore they're maybe just a little bit more traceable than just plain WW2 ribbon bars.

I didn't not mean any harm to you buying these, because I also know that you're collecting them. But I couldn't resist. You know how it is.

I am still considering, if my brother, who by the way is very skilled with these things, should put again the swords device in place on the 6 place ribbon bar. What do you think? Is it morally accetable? My brother would do it only if he can find a swords' device which is quite similar to the ones on the "Frontkämpfer-Ehrenzeichen".

Ciao,

Claudio

[Rick Research]

Yes, you must definitely replace the swords-- that is repair and restoration.

I'm glad you said the backings are black because they look like gray and green to me from the scans!

I very often find verifiable naval bars with the standard red backings, but I have never seen verifiable army ones with dark blue or black, so I think these are both from naval recipients.

My best educated guess for your Red Cross bar is

Dr.med. Carl Fiévet (note the é), born 12 May 1881, navy 1.10.06-24.11.19: MarineStabsarzt 22.3.14 G. He was Ship's Physician of SMS Loreley, a yacht serving as German "Station" ship in Constantinople (and I have a photo of it there in Admiral Böning's album), before the start of the war. He was simultaneously to serve as Flotilla Physician there after the war started on hospital ships "Irmingard" and "Hugo Nora Stinnes" until February 1915, then he was Ship's Physician of SMS "Breslau" until August 1915. He then left Turkey, was a senior physician (Oberarzt-- position, not rank) at the Festungs-Lazarett Kiel-Wik until November 1916, Senior Physician with the shore establishment II. Torpedo-Division to March 1918, then unit doctor of the I. Küsten-Bataillon to war's end. He received brevet rank as char. Marine-Oberstabsarzt aD 27.4.21.

The February 1918 Marinerangliste, which only gives German awards, had him with EK2 and Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class. Contrary to expectations, the Red Cross medals were NOT common military awards-- and that seems especially true of naval officers. (Out of the top 103 regular medical officers, only 8 had a Red Cross Medal.)

Oddly enough, Dr. Fiévet did not pursue a postwar medical career-- in 1937 he was a director of W. Siedersleben & Co., G.m.b.H. in Bernberg, Anhalt-- manufacturers of agricultural machinery and cast iron goods!

[Mike Dunn]

Outstanding ribbon bars! Have not seen many like this and these are all great! Mike

[Rick Research]

Here's my new naval medical officer's bar from above. The awards are: Imtiaz Medal in Silver with Sabers Bar, a Medjdie Order with Sabers, Liakat Medal in Silver with Sabers Bar, Turkish War Medal star, and what I assume was the Turkish Lifesaving Medal--though it could have been a Swedish Vasa Order, an Italian Sts Maurice and Lazarus, a Hungarian Merit, or...???

While an Imtiaz with sabers should have been a quite significant, repeated deeds award, when found without an intermediate Liakat Medal like on Claudio's bar, that usually indicates an early "by rank" award. As Ship's Physician of the cruiser "Breslau," Dr. Fiévet would have gotten one, like the other senior officers.

While I cannot be sure of EITHER identification being correct (unless Werner can come up with more portrait photos!!!), given what I can tell from the Marineehrenrangliste by going through EVERY medical officer who served in Turkey-- regulars, der Reserve, and der Seewehr, my best ID on my bar would be one Ludwig Reinhold, NOT a Dr.med. (it is very odd to me, but a number of German career medical officers seem never to have gotten their M.D. degree!!!), born 7 January 1885, navy 1.10.04-17.1.19, Marine-Stabsarzt 22.3.14 D.

He went to Turkey as a Senior Physician at "Turkish Reserve Hospital Harbin" (obviously a Turkish place and not the city in Manchuria!!!) in July 1915, remaining for the rest of the war. His MERL entry is atypically vague, without specific dates, listing only chronological service in the "Fleet Landing Section on Gallipoli," Submarine Flotilla Constantinople (which operated mainly in the Black Sea), and (alongside my later-Paymaster Admiral Böning--yes, there WERE that few German naval officers in Turkey!) with the "desert freshwater navy" of the Euphrates River Flotilla. I'm making my possible ID of him based on these combat postings. Most doctors were at hospitals far from the sort of fighting that would have produced a rack like this. He also got a retirement rank bump to char. Marine-Oberstabsarzt aD 27.4.21.

And what of Herr Not-a-"Doctor" Reinhold after the war? He was living in 1930, but I can find no other trace of him.

He and Dr. Fiévet were no doubt called back up for naval medical duties in WW2.