Grand Cross Ww1

[rev]

I know this is not for Imperial crosses but I thought everyone would enjoy this so I am posting it here. It is for sale on Ebay and would like some opinions on this if there are no objections

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...540850542&rd=1


Joe

[George Stimson]

It still belongs in "Imperial."

[Darrell]

Look at the selling price and read this statement:

We believe that this award is a jeweller’s duplicate of the period and not to be confused with cheap present day imitations.

Says it all ....

The cross dimensions and ribbon dimensions are also wrong

It IS a cheap copy

P.S. He says there were 8 recipients Actually there were 5 .... I guess this is one of the other missing 3 ....

[saschaw]

P.S. He says there were 8 recipients Actually there were 5 .... I guess this is one of the other missing 3 ....

There were only 4, but Wilhelm II. was told by his General to wear it also ...

[joe campbell]

i find that the registered military museums are
so much more reputable than the unregistered ones....

[Tiger 1]

Not so fast my friends.

This is a legit period copy. Definately not awarded to or worn by anyone, but a period copy for patriotic and other display purposes none the less. The dimensions are not out of line.

What is listed incorrectly is how many awarded and it being worn. This in itself should not be a factor of period originality. Look at the piece and not the story as the old axiom goes.

The identical GC is shown in "Das Eiserne Kreuz 1813-1939" published by the Deutsches Ordensmuseum Ludenscheid. It is clearly identified as a museum piece.

Of the five GCs officially awarded only four are believed to exist today. Gen. Ludendorff's was lost during WWII in an air raid on Munchen.

I also have the same type in my collection as a period example of an awarded cross that will never be on the market. I am fully aware it's a period copy and enjoy it none the less.

Is the price realistic? That's for the buyer to decide for themselves. IMO too much but who knows now a days.

Just some thoughts,

Tony

[Les]

look at his other offering

Not so fast my friends. Tony

If you look at the other items he's selling

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13965&item=6540753 314&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

(price tag at the moment of $6,950 with no bids) is a "PlM". The PlM is the currently made Spanish copy that Andreas has posted in the fakes thread. This type sells as a modern copy for about US$400, and is being offered with the following hype:
<H2>This award is the property of a registered military museum. It comes with a 3-day inspection period and with a letter of authenticity from the museum.

Yes it might be the property of a "registered military museum" and it might come with a "letter of authenticity" from the museum. That story, and a buck and some spare change, will get you a cup of coffee at some corner cafes in the US.

Les
</H2>

[Tiger 1]

Les,

No need to shout. I maybe older but I'm not completely deaf or dumb, though that maybe debateable at times.

As I stated, look at the piece and not the story. I really didn't look at what else was being sold and was just commenting only on the GC itself.

Your point regarding the GC is...........?

Tony

[Les]

Les, No need to shout. I maybe older but I'm not completely deaf or dumb, though that maybe debateable at times.
<snip>
Your point regarding the GC is...........? Tony

Tony,

Sorry for not shrinking the fonts down after cutting and pasting! My fault, and apologies on that.

The ebay GC photo of the reverse side, shows the date numbers being straight up and down, not leaning inwards as the known awarded Wagner made originals all have. That said, the GC copy on ebay is a copy, but not all that close. It's a copy, but when was it made? I won't venture a guess. Are high-quality copies that look identical to known older copies, made in the last decade on the market? I think so.

The "museum" referred to is not mentioned by name, but I have some suspicions that the "museum" is run by a well-known Canadian militaria dealer close to Toronto. The medal itself is said to be located in Colborne, Canada, which is not far from Toronto. If the "museum" is the dealer I'm thinking of, then I'd be leery of how old the piece really is and the offer of a letter saying it's "authentic". The dealer or source and their reputation is sometimes a factor in whether to buy from them, or go keep looking for the same item from elsewhere.

"Habourlites" has offered a previous "PlM" that had a high-price tag, didn't sell, and IMO, was not made before 1945, although it was described as what is often called a replacement copy. Add to the mix, another PlM that is far newer in manufacture than some of the clothes in my underwear drawer, my "B.S." detector starts beeping.

Let's say that I'm not convinced that the piece was actually made prior to 1945, or that it's not an exact copy of an older copy.

The Grand Cross "copies" discussion in some regards leads me to think about the Pour le Merite "copies" discussion that from time to time rages on the Forum. There were five known -awarded- 1914 Grand Crosses, and over 700 PlMs. Interestingly, we know there were many copies of the 1914 GC made for jewlers displays and museums, despite the -SMALL- demand that there would have been for any "replacement" copies, and by 1941, many of the orginial recipients were either very advanced in years or dead...copies were still being made. Now...if someone brings up the subject of copies of the PlM being made between 1919-1945...the inevitable objections that the "demand" was too small to justify making them, etc, arises.

If jewelers were happy to make 1914 GC's as a symbol of pride, and fors display in shop windows, museums, etc, then why not the same for the PlM? If we think about the relative importance of both medals as a display of pride, military history, etc, among Germans up until 1945 (or later), then why is there a "disconnect" among some of the Forum members when it comes to the idea of GC 1914 "copies" made for whatever reason, and despite the small demand, while being against the idea that PlM's might have been made for the same reasons?

Les

[Tiger 1]

Tony,

If jewelers were happy to make 1914 GC's as a symbol of pride, and fors display in shop windows, museums, etc, then why not the same for the PlM? If we think about the relative importance of both medals as a display of pride, military history, etc, among Germans up until 1945 (or later), then why is there a "disconnect" among some of the Forum members when it comes to the idea of GC 1914 "copies" made for whatever reason, and despite the small demand, while being against the idea that PlM's might have been made for the same reasons?

Les

Les,

No problem. I hear you just fine now.

I concur with you that this copy is not one of the ones made by Wagner. From my searches the Wagner examples are much scarcer than other unknown makers examples. Either way if they were not awarded they are rightly regarded as copies.

Copies of the GC was used for patriotic displays as well as intregal design devices attached to flag pole tops for certain prestigious regiments. The pole tops that I have seen with the GC sized Iron Cross device were of varying qualities as would be logical for different makers and different eras.

The one we are discussing matches the example that is shown in the German reference I mentioned above. Off the top of my head I think it was puiblished in the late 1980's or so.

As I mentioned, FOR ME, it was an acceptable substitute example of a genuine awarded decoration that will never be on the market. I will enjoy this example until I am able to upgrade it with a Wagner made example. It's a personal choice that is not set in stone for anyone else.

If by some very improbable circumstance a genuine awarded GC appeared on the market, the price alone would be well out my financial reach.

About your question above.

The main reason that the Iron Cross, GCs included, are so prominent is that the German people have accepted it as a powerful symbol of the German nation. It remains so today with the modified Iron Cross that identifies current German military aircraft and vehicles. The same cannot be said about the PLM. While a very prestigious award, the PLM is not foremost in the minds of Germans as a national symbol. The PLM was a valor award.

The term museum copy is used to denote something period made for display but not necessarily for a specific museum. I equate that term with a quality copy or example by original period manufacturors. I agree that dating such copies can be frustrating at times.

Are these museum copies for everyone's collection?

That question can only be answered by the individual collector. I can accept period museum copies as examples of unavailable genuine awards such as the GC or the Breast Star to the GC. I don't think anyone will be fooled by them as being original.

On the other hand more readily available decorations; even when rare, like an 1813 EKI, will have a blank spot in my collection until I get a proper example to fill it with. To each his own in this matter as our personal standards differ based on our dreams and asperations for our individual collections.

Just some further thoughts.

Tony

[Daniel Cole]

I've seen the real GC of the Kaisers in Hechingen at Burg Hohenzollern. They are awesome. That said, unless you won the powerball jackpot a genuine piece, (if it came on the market) would be thousands, way beyond 90% of the collectors wallets. I personnaly would rather have a nice inexpensive copy to till my display and spent the remaining thousands in this case on a pieriod piece such as a nice Hohenzollern Knights or Commander cross, or numerous other original period pieces that will only increase in value.

After all this piece in discussioin is still a copy, albeit a very expensive one. As for its age???????????????? That is a mystery that can never really be proven.

Just my 2 cents

[Tiger 1]

That estimate maybe too low given the prices of other rarities such as the British Victoria Cross and the Knights Cross with Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds.

IMO a genuine awarded Grand Cross on the market would surely be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and I wouldn't be surprised if a million dollars would be out of line for some astute wealthy collector. The desirability and rarity of a genuine awarded GC would command these high figures.

Heck, a German Cross in Gold with Diamonds, with a known population of 17 out of 20 made, brings mid five figures when they are sold. That I know for sure.

Just more thoughts.

Tony

[Biro]

I agree, these are good quality copies.

It seems true market value is still a little 'hazy' on these however......

Both on ebay at present, one with a starting bid of $4850.00, the other $1250.00 - no mention of a Reserve.

The cores are identical.

Nice copies though, and if I had the spare cash........

Marshall

[oldflagswanted]

about Imperial IC's on flag pole top finials

...Copies of the GC was used for patriotic displays as well as intregal design devices attached to flag pole tops for certain prestigious regiments. The pole tops that I have seen with the GC sized Iron Cross device were of varying qualities as would be logical for different makers and different eras...

Imperial German Army battalion flags awarded the IC for specific combat action service where presented a pole top containing an authentic GC size IC, which was edge pin mounted into the center of the wreath teardrop pattern finial, thus these original tops are very rare and worth several thousand dollars each! Imperial German veterans flags had a the smaller size IC either cast in or using a 2nd class quality IC, and thus are not worth very much. <br><center><img src=http://home.att.net/~b.k.weed/nzflagwave.gif></center><center>OldFlagsWanted</center>