Prices???

[FRED KONIG]

Hello,

I would like to inquire about some prices. I have been offered a IRON CROSS 1ST CLASS 1870 "PRINZEN", Iron Cross 2nd Class of 1813, and a Grand Cross (Grosskreuz) of 1914.

Here are the descriptions....

IC 1st class 1870 - Magnetic iron center, silver frame. 34x34 mm, "Prinzen"-sized cross purchased by officers and nobles for wear on the full dress uniform. Retains 95% of original black paint on obverse; some bubbling on left cross arm. Reverse is marked "I WAGNER & S." and "800". Needle style attachment.

IC 2nd class - Stepped iron magnetic centre, three-part silver frame, large suspension loop heavily soldered at closure. Unmarked. 41x41 mm. Some paint bubbling and slight pitting on both obverse and reverse surfaces. Other than its stepped iron centre, the major characteristics of this piece (a three-part frame and crisper details) indicate that it was produced during the period 1834-37.

Grand Cross (Grosskreuz) of 1914 - Hollow iron center of lightweight construction, silver frame, laterally soldered wire eyelet. 57.5 x 57.5mm, 27 g. Produced during the 1920s-30s. This piece corresponds to the "Zweitstueck" worn by Field Marshal von Hindenburg (compare to the piece shown in Nimmergut's handbook, Vol. 2, Nr. 2543). Conspicuous are the lightweight construction of the centre and the prominent three-dimensional crown on both sides. Not an awarded piece, but of a type that would have been used in everyday wear, possibly with civilian clothing. The variant form of the eyelet and ring indicate that this piece was not made for wear around the neck, but rather through a buttonhole on a piece of ribbon. An extremely rare Grand Cross from the Weimar period.

Being that I know little or NOTHING about these items, I would very much appreciate your comments/concerns/prices.

Thank you,

Fred Konig

[Bill M]

--Pictures are at very LEAST necessary.
--If you know little or nothing about Iron Crosses, I would suggest that you start with smaller fish. There is a lot to learn about EK's.
--Unless you are wealthy and have both the money to spend and a need for instant gratification, I'd suggest getting a few simple 1914 crosses before taking the leap into the 19th century (or a Grand Cross for that matter, as dubious as the one you describe).

[FRED KONIG]

thank you

Hi Bill,

Thank you for the comments. I have no problem what so ever in spending the money, however I want to make certain that what I am getting is original and moreover worth the asking price.

I have NO idea how to post photos here.

Fred

[stogieman]

Regarding authenticity........

.............. and price vs. value.
First off, welcome to the forums! Great place to glean and grow your knowledge! Lots of us have made lots of mistakes, some of us have made very expensive mistakes. So,
While you might not have any problem parting with money, you are correct in trying to get additional authentication before plunking down your dough!
Impossible to evaluate any of the items you have posted descriptions of, based upon the description. If you have access to web-based storage, click into the "Technical Advice" forum to learn about photos. Dues-Paying Association members can post right onto the site.
If you have photos available, we'll need to see them.
Whether able, or not. The items you have listed are exceedingly rare, highly reproduced and some of the re-pops are very nicely done. So, my advice is to excersise caution, before purchasing any item of this nature.

[Bill M]

--Can you send them by e-mail? If so, send me those of the 1813 and 1870. Never mind the Grand Cross, I'm just going to advise against that anyway. I'll post the pics for you...hell - send the Grand too - it wouldn't hurt!
--My e-mail is Jgdpanzer@aol.com

[FRED KONIG]

Thank you

Thank you Bill and Stogieman!!

IF the pieces were authenticate, what should the prices be?

Thank you,

Fred

[Bill M]

--Send me the pics, I'll let Stogie-Rick field the question!

[Dez H]

That Grand Cross sounds exactally like the description a certain ebay crook had up last week. He was also offering a PLM, uboat badge and all manner of high end pieces. I would tread carefully.



Regards

Dez

[Christian L]

yes, i've made mistakes, too.
the rearer the pices the less you think about if it will be real - it will be make realy blind - so i can only say pay most attention it's possible.
hope for you that they are original

[Rick Research]

Personally, I would NEVER touch ANY 1914 "Grand Cross" at ANY price. All the thousands upon thousands out there are ALL supposedly "shop window display pieces," unless one would feel happy with one that would have to be post-WW2 stolen property.

I have never in my lifetime seen a legitimate, documented, attributed 1914 Grand Cross come up for sale, nor do I ever expect to... ever.

At this point, the 1870s-- in PARTICULAR "exotica" are being mass produced on an industrial scale "out East." I wouldn't touch one without an iron clad guaranty from a dealer who is respected by COLLECTORS, not one of the "I say I'm great" sellers we all know so well.

You would be well advised to Name Name of your seller (in PMs if not in public) to the guys here who know about 1870 and 1813 pieces (I know nothing) and see what kind of reaction you get.

These are NOT yard sale items. Unless from a dealer who, again, COLLECTORS give Top Rating to--- flee for your life!!!!!!!!! If these are from a "top collector," again-- the mere combination of items is enough to send alarm bells clanging.

[Tim C]

Hi Fred,

I'm with Rick, the chances of getting an original Grand Cross I think are as close to zero as you can get. Rick is right, let someone here know who it is offering these.

From time to time rare items do come up, but personally, I wouldn't touch anything rare from someone I didn't know. Certainly if I was offered a GC I would run, unless the recipient personally hands it to me........they are just too rare to expect one ever being for sale.

As for the others, really need to see some pics.

[Dez H]

Tim these were on ebay 2 weeks ago.......along with a fake PLM, u-boat bages, 1813 ek etc.....all junk, enough said about the source.



Regards
Dez

[C.C.Reilly]

A word about the 1914 Grand Cross

I do not think it is completely accurate to suggest that one cannot find a good war time period copy, post WW1 copy, or even a copy made during the 3rd Reich. It is understood that all of the original award pieces of the 1914 Grand Cross have been accounted for, so a (pre-1945) copy would realistically be the closest a collector could come to the real thing. Nice pre 1945 copies do exist. I personally witnessed one verified at the last Max show by first Stephen Previtera, and then by Helmut Weitz. The piece had also been verified by Ken Greenfield of Der Rittermeister.

I will not disagree that post 1945 fakes are out there, but not as many as you have to wade through for a good 1939 RK.

[Tim C]

Hi C.C

I hear what your saying, and I have no doubt that there are some period or close to period restrikes for museums etc.

But... the one Fred is asking about ..."This piece corresponds to the "Zweitstueck" worn by Field Marshal von Hindenburg"

The inference is the piece belonged to Hindenburg, and that's the bit I find hard to believe. Still, I take on board that if it is being offered and priced as a period made copy, it is possible.

[C.C.Reilly]

1914 Grand Cross

Hello Tim,

And sorry for the late reply. I would agree that some very good evidence would be needed to suffice a personality item belonging to von Hindenburg. And I am thinking real forensics, for the kind of serious money they would be asking.