Observer WK I

[mark99995]

Hello,

original ?

Thanks


Mark

[Don D.]

You need to upload the pics to the waf server. Use the manage attachments button.

[mark99995]

ok, sorry.....

[DDCOOK]

Original - nice badge

Dan

[Mike Kenny]

It's a bit late now. The auction has ended.

Regards
Mike

[mark99995]

Right, but I'm pretty sure it's ok ..... but you don't know everything ... hence the idea here ....

Regards


Mark

[Ferg 1]

Juncker made issue piece
Ferg

[Hagrid]

Hi Mark!
Nice Original but a little bit overpriced, imho
Regards
Hagrid

[Ferg 1]

Yes ,£588 as a non dealer price was surprising , even the prinzen size pilot badge he had made nearly £200 . Maybe it was the fact it had ‘ Easter 1919 ‘ scratched on the back ,can’t imagine that would rocket the price though .
Ferg

[phild]

It would be nice to know what the different examples of the cliche type badges posted here, on sites and in books were actually made of. Sometimes we are told (may or may not be correct) and sometime we can tell, like when the finish is worn off of a Brass/Tombac base or steel has corroded.


I bring this up because I think that the materials are key to better placing a time frame and indicating private purchase vs award.



The government specifications for what a decoration or badge was to be made of certainly changed for many things during the war (WWI) PLM are a well documented example, but it is for certain that materials were specified under contract and pieces that were government purchased complied with the specs.


Private purchase is a different matter and most anything could be used and was, price probably was more of a driver than quality as probably 90% of the purchasers did not know or care what the award with made of.


I have seen the cliche type badges made of plated brass/tombac, nickel silver (German silver, Alpacca all were an alloy of copper and nickle with a little tin or perhaps zinc) and plated mild steel or iron. I have also seen some like the "square punch" makes in actual silver.


I tend to think that any of this variety made during WWI would have been out of silver, nickle silver (maybe) and steel. I know that after 1914 copper (brass) became more controlled than silver and was removed as a choice for all decorations.

[Hagrid]

Hi!
Nice approach to establish a timeline, but with a lot of maybes involved...
A short summary of my (personal) impressions, derived from books, forums and own speculations:
As to the pilots badge (and mostly the observers as well), early awarded pieces were hollow (with weep-holes), made of silver and came from the Juncker factory. Timeframe could be assumed by the punches (small moon in the early beginnings) and their location (middle first, then sliding down towards the catch). As far as I know Juncker never produced magnetic pieces!
The cliché-type "Deumer"-style (I´m personally not so sure about the maker!) might be awarded pieces too and come in silvered brass or sheet iron, a hint for the date of production is the die-flaw at the crown becoming bigger during the years.
The massive "Deumer" badges (derived from their hardware) are made of tombac, Cupal or zinc - I think them to be 30ies products. These are very heavy, so I assume that the evolution shows in the cut of weight: Massive first, then with an excavated wreath on the back, cupal (or plain aluminium), at the end -due to lack of material - zinc (after 1942).
Square punch and Meybauer are private purchase merchandise and the material is determined by the purse of the customer.
Probably the silver ones were more attractive for the recipients in comparison to the cheap looking awarded pieces....

One excepion would be Square punch: they had cliché-type badges made of silver (at least I have an bavarian one...)

Finally one remark on the regulations and materials requested therein:
Although it mostly states "made of silver" it seemed to be ok to have it just "silver coloured".
I don´t think it´s wise to compare the proceedings and regulations for the making of PLMs (being one of the highest and most esteemed awards) and a pilots badge (a mere sign of qualifying for "air taxi services" for observer officers) The reputation might have changed a bit though with the appearance of "ace flyers" later in the war...

just my 2 cents
Hagrid

[phild]

Hadrid
I truly excellent summation, thanks. I agree with all of your comments except the last bit, but I concede that you may be correct there as well.

My problem is that I know that official award pieces for every award had to conform to set specifications and this included what material(s) the award was made of. I also know that typically (in both world wars) these specs evolved as the demands and material availability changed.

The question is could more than one specification have been in effect at the same time? If so it is for sure that the government paid a good deal more for the 800 silver badges than they did for alpacca badges. Two greatly different qualities at the same time, so what drove who received which quality? Pure luck? We know it was not an officer vs NCO “thing” because all observers were officers and there are many cliche non silver observer badges.

I can see a regulation change at the end of 1917 or early 1918 discontinuing the use of silver in government procurered badges. If so everyone got the same badge from that point on just as with the PLM and all other metal changes like the Pokal.

I understand where you are coming from when you mention the esteem of the badge early on compared to other awards, but you also have to consider in 1913-1915 and onwards the any and all flight training was incredibly expensive and cutting edge. I think that by 1914 the Germans had a similar number of certified military pilots as the US astronauts by the 1980s