Help identify Freikorps flags?

[Tgnob]

tgnob46@hotmail.com/onedrive/Death Head Freikorps
These flags are WW1 or post WW1 Weimar republic Freikorp paramilitary. I need a
little help with this opinion. Here is what I have as info on the flags:

1. Pennant- 8-1/4" hoist, 27-1/2" fly.
This pennant came in a collection of English & German WW1 memorabilia. I
think maybe English sub kill Pennant? That is all on this flag.
2. Flag- 23-1/4" hoist, 34" fly.
This came from a collection just south of Berlin Neuendorf/Beelitz and
ephemera from 1919-1945. I am told it is a Totenkopf Panzer Freikorp flag.
Made from cotton dated 1918 (pics.) and writing Kokampf, Lepzig SCH ABT 1.
My research led that this unit, in May 1919, subdued a communist riot
in Lepzig. If you could help me out on identifying or confirming authenticity,
with your experience, would be greatly appreciated. The tank photo is one I
found on the internet and display's a flag similar to mine. There is also a date of

1918 and a crown on the hoist, I believe to be a Berlin Manufacture mark.
I can send more photo's if needed. Thank you again and have
a good week !!

[Brian L.]

I can't access the photos of the pennants. I've sent you a PM with my email. Send me the pics and I'll post them here.

[Brian L.]

Kokampf Leipzig Sch Abt 1 stands for:

Kommando der Kampfwagen Abteilung Leipzig Schützen Abteilung 1.

This unit came from Kokampf that originated in Berlin in late 1918. It came under the control of 3rd Marinebrigade (von Löwenfeld) when it moved to Munich and Leipzig.

It's difficult to precisely reference this flag. But, I believe it is genuine and may just be another example used by the original Kampfwagen troops led by Hauptmann Georg Körting (Kampfwagen Abteilung Körting), this one being Abteilung 1 of Körting's Freikorps (there were three Abteilungen, altogether).

I've uploaded the pictures sent to me by the original poster, including a photo of a crew from Kampfwagen Abteilung Körting. You can see a member in the upper right holding a very similar flag.

Having owned and/or examined genuine Freikorps flags in the past, I personally like the "feel" of this flag. A really fine piece of Freikorps history.

[Brian L.]

un-documented Totenkopf pennant.

I have seen a similar Freikorps "Wimpel" before and therefore believe this is genuine. It's possibly a Kampfwagen command pennant used on a lead vehicle, by the Kampfwagen Abteilung Körting or a similar unit. (see the other flag below). The material, color and the way it is made lead me to believe it is most probably German and Freikorps. I believe that the 2 black 'Xs' indicate rank of the vehicle commander. Körting I think used 3 'Xs' on his vehicle. So, this possibly indicates a subordinate commander. I realize it's pure speculation. But, sometimes that and the logical piecing together of various bits of information is all there is to go on until definitive information comes to light.

[Gilles C.]

Particularly ugly, only suitable for a disciplinary/penal unit, especially the first one.
Otherwise, which soldiers would have accepted such a work? Finding a gifted tailor/tailoress would have been all but impossible at the time in Leipzig.
I do have problems to believe in the originality of the first one.
The second would make a good Vietnam war pennant.

Regards
Gilles

[Tgnob]

Freikorps flag response

Well I collect flags and have from American before civil war thru WW2 liberation. I can tell you that if the flag was not completely hand made, a lot were altered by soldiers in the field. Such as the first flag. Has date 1918 and a crown printed on the fly. I have seen a very similar marking on a WW1 German sawback bayonet. It indicated a manufacture in Berlin. Flags are repaired or altered or modified in the field a lot. I have a WW2 one star Brigadier General car pennant. It is all red with one white star in the middle. Driving down the road it flapping in the wind, I am sure it could of been mistaken for a Nazi party flag. The General altered it by sewing a small 48 star American flag in the top left corner so when flapping it could be clearly seen and not mistaken for Nazi party flag. So with that being said there was no need for a seamstress due to the fact that it was hand sewn by a soldier in the field. This would also show the discrepancy in the shape and looks from the other flag in the tank photo provided. No soldier in the field is a perfect tailor and that would be why the flags Death head look different on both of them.
Now for the pennant, it to is individualized. It may of just had the 2 xx's on it, as suggested for identification of a subordinate officer. It was in a collection of WW1 German and British items. I have seen a couple of years ago, a British sub kill death head pennant very similar with the 3 loops at the end of the fly. I signed up for this forum to receive some help from some collectors and other experts. I am sure it is not a Vietnam pennant as suggested.
In flag collecting using a black light to check for "Glowing" determines if ANY of the construction has used materials post WW2. Neither of these show this. Thanks for your comments but please know a little about the subject rather than being insulting when I am strictly looking for help. Merry Christmas !!

[Brian L.]

Particularly ugly, only suitable for a disciplinary/penal unit, especially the first one.
Otherwise, which soldiers would have accepted such a work? Finding a gifted tailor/tailoress would have been all but impossible at the time in Leipzig.
I do have problems to believe in the originality of the first one.
The second would make a good Vietnam war pennant.

Regards
Gilles

Your comments here and on Feldgrau are counter-productive, not constructive and don't add anything to the discussion. There's no need to be derogatory. The owner of the flags has fairly asked for an honest discussion, not mud-slinging.

I have seen some pretty amateurish soldier-produced Freikorps material including uniform insignia and flags. While it's true this one is really pretty rough, that does not preclude it from being genuine. The similar flag shown in the well-known photo of the Hedi crew of the Kokampf in Leipzig looks like it was likely as roughly hand-made as this one.

The fact that this can't be definitively documented is ironically a point in it's favor. If someone is going to go to the trouble of faking a flag, they would firstly, do a better job than this and secondly they would pick a flag to copy that had some point of reference. These days, it's difficult to sell something like this that would clearly be aimed at an advanced collector without some convincing provenance.

Personally, I like the Panzerkampwagen flag. Sure, it's rough and not especially pretty. But, it's exactly that saltiness and brutality in appearance that fits the Freikorps times. I can believe that some Freikorps Freebooter put this together from an existing national flag and whatever else he could find. These guys were nothing more than rough, cynical, nihilistic pirates. Any semblance of, or connection to the precision and discipline of the Imperial army was dead and buried in the mud of Flanders.

[Gilles C.]

I am sorry if people were shocked or felt insulted by my comments, as I did not intend them to be, and would like to apologize.
Best regards
G.

[Tgnob]

Friekorp flag

Thank you apology accepted. Please do have a very Merry Christmas!! Tom K.