Favorite comment of the week

[Brian L.]

I don't want to open up a can of worms and could care less about the remarks made against me, but...

I have to say that the comment made on the thread about the Meybauer Baltic Cross, that Don closed that referred to Verkuillen Ager and Gerhard Klietmann as follows...

..."because you knew old time collectors and have handled a number of crosses over the years"...


...made my day.


Ya. Verkuillen and Dr. Klietmann were merely a couple of "old time collectors" and of no importance.

I guess the books they wrote and research they painstakingly did, Dr. Klietmann owning Godet and founding the Institut für Wissenschaftliche Ordenskunde, not to mention, of course everything that I personally learned from both of them was all just plain rubbish.

Who knew???

[mchap]

In the case of the cross in question, burden of proof falls on the person claiming its authenticity... and I still dont like the cross. At least there ARE references to accepted Baltic Crosses out for us to look at. Most collectors will always go for the typical, not the A-typical...

Its definitely ok to make a judement on something that eventually gets corrected, at least you own up to the error and learn from it. I think you are well versed in the learning process... its how you make your living no?

[jabnus]

Well...

I neither want to (re-)open a can of worms, but then again, since you re-opened the discussion... i presume you also know about the shady bussiness of your good friend Klietmann as well, who probably is in the top 10 of medal selling frauds ever? If not you're in for treat if you look him up better. It would be wise to take his books with a grain of salt and i would not take everyting from a source like that for gospel as no way is everything in his books truth. All painstaking research? I don't think so!

Not everything is always what it seems on the surface and many "big" reputations have been destroyed by actions that later got known to the collecting community, of what certain "big name" oldtimers like Klietmann did. You want me to give some examples? Let's talk e.g about some fake badges coming from Klietmann that reside in several very big collections? Many people have been burnt by him for a lot of money and many more no doubt will in the future by the same items.

As said in the other topic, you are not the only one who knows/knew some of these oldtimers, but seeing you've even opened another topic now about this it appears you are still the one who wants to feel special about what you typed above.

Back to the Meybauer cross: it may not be for the "typical" collector who only follows the several dozens of known variations, but if the collectors community would (have) dismiss(ed) every non-typical item immediatly as fake, then A LOT of good items would have been destroyed or vice versa.

I won't reply in this strange topic anymore on the above matter, but it seemed as if you were wanting/provoking a reaction by opening this topic. You can always pm me or open another topic on Baltic crosses in which everyone can post their exemples so that we can all learn from that. I wish i could post a period source that showed a pro- or con for this cross, which i can't (yet), but it seems as if more characteristocs are in favor of it then against it. That's not an opinion, that's looking at it's construction and details and compare them to known other awards and characteristics by the same maker, a method that is used in more forumsections and that ultimately resulted often in more knowledge. There are so many many more Baltic Cross exemples out there that are not regarded as textbook, but they are not all bad. Rejecting them then on forehand is not good at all and this wouldn't be the first time in this forumsection. Like many other collectors i'd love to see this forum more active, but if we want more action here we need to show other collectors this is a serous forum, and not just Always give opinions.

Let's please continu collecting, maybe i'll share some more items here after all and see how it goes.

[Brian L.]

I am well aware of Dr. Klietmann's failings in later life. Having said that, he was an extremely knowledgeable person and served as an invaluable teacher to me in my very early days of collecting back in the 60s, as I had the good fortune (in my opinion) to have met him a few times and to have corresponded with him occasionally over the years until his death.

As to the cross details that are suspect (IMO): low-quality shaved and filed rivets are not typical of Meybauer. the paint on the rivets is very unusual as the black Baltic crosses were typically painted/oxydized before assembly with the gilt trefoil crosses (maybe the back is re-painted then). the maker mark is soft which is typical of the fakes. I asked to see a close-up of the mark because the fakes have a circular centre instead of the normal shield-shaped centre over the eagles' chest. The brooch-style pin is not typical of Meybauer Baltic crosses. the Meybauer pins are usually coke bottle shaped with a wide flange at the top, or possibly, if an early one, similar to the style of pins on WWI wound badges. Although I have never seen one, it's possible that Meybauer may also have made a screwback version, as this style of attachment was common on other Meybauer badges of the period.

As collectors everyone has a right to an opinion. This is how we learn. We can agree to disagree and do so in a civilized manner.

There's no need for personal attacks and rudeness.

As a result, I am not interested in your opinion or any further exchanges with you, if they are going to result in lengthy posts full of meaningless vitriole.

[Sergeant 08]

.... I am not interested in your opinion or any further exchanges with you.

I welcome that!

We had never had a closed thread in the FK forum since it started. After his last comment, we had one.

We don't need more......

[chris clark]

back to happy families please

[vellocino]

Come on guys, let's have a cold one at the mess club and shake hands. We agree everyone is entitled to his own personal opinion, and have the right of free expression, but at this humble gathering place, we are here to exchange ideas, exciting finds and ocasionally a joke, but must be expressed with the most utterly respect to a fellow hobby member.
Value a sincere opinion, disagree with it or just simply discard it and move on. Restraint yourself from personal attacks.
You both are mentors for us newcomers, in the same way you relied one day, in someone who helped to shape the personal perception you currently have. Act accordingly.

So let me ring the bell, first round it's on me!

Vellocino

[Don D.]

Topic closed. Do not start it again.
Thanks.