Meybauer Baltenkreuz for review.

[Jelle M.]

Hi guys,

what do you think of this cross?
It has the meyvbauer crest if i'm not mistaking.
Looking forward hearing some opinions as i'm not really home in this matter.

Thank you.

[Jelle M.]

more

[Jelle M.]

final

[Mike Kenny]

Unusual hinge/pin for a Meybauer and imo very unusual to see finish on the rivets. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not one I'd be comfortable with.

Regards
Mike

[Brian L.]

I don't like it either. it's convincing from the front. But, the back set-up is troubling.

Can you post a close-up of the Meybauer mark? This mark is heavily faked and is no guarantee of originality these days.

[Jean-Claude]

Hi Nightstalker

I only have one of these Baltenkreuz and I know there were many variations but I would agree with Martin & Bolewts58

Hardware is similar to that of my unmarked specimen with blasted rivets but its certainly not the typical hardware (or rivets) that Meybauer used on other stuff I have seen (Schlesischer Adler attached)

Regards

JC

[Jean-Claude]

Sorry, duplicate post

JC

[Jelle M.]

Thank you very much for the input.
Don't think i will buy this one.

[jabnus]

I actually quite like it and as Jean-Claude shows the hardware -although rare- is the same on other Meybauer items as well.

The problem with Baltenkreuzer is that there are countless variations and no good referencework on the subject exist. I bet that if a 100 different examples were posted here half would get a thumbsdown because most collectors are unfamiliar with them.

[mchap]

I actually quite like it and as Jean-Claude shows the hardware -although rare- is the same on other Meybauer items as well.

The problem with Baltenkreuzer is that there are countless variations and no good referencework on the subject exist. I bet that if a 100 different examples were posted here half would get a thumbsdown because most collectors are unfamiliar with them.

There are quite a few Baltic Crosses posted here and GMIC for reference. Its certainly not comprehensive, but its a good way to start developing a critical eye. At some point there are too many cooks in the kitchen and everything becomes a possible fake. We are then back to square one....

Homework is our only salvation!
Luckily these things arent super rare, and they were made for a number of years... so you can be selective.

[Brian L.]

I actually quite like it and as Jean-Claude shows the hardware -although rare- is the same on other Meybauer items as well.

The problem with Baltenkreuzer is that there are countless variations and no good referencework on the subject exist. I bet that if a 100 different examples were posted here half would get a thumbsdown because most collectors are unfamiliar with them.

In fact there's a great reference (although in Russian). Check the reference thread for details.

By the way, if some collectors here (for example me) give a thumbs down, it's based in fact on extensive knowledge from many years of collecting and researching Freikorps material.

[jabnus]

Hi,

Thanks for the bookcover. Unfortunately most of us probably don't speak too good Russian to even be able to read the title and search for it.

A link to a (english) site selling this book would be nice.

By the way, if some collectors here (for example me) give a thumbs down, it's based in fact on extensive knowledge from many years of collecting and researching Freikorps material.

Im very sorry and don't mean this as bad as it perhaps sounds, but this remark is exactly the reason why i don't contribute much to this forumsection. This forumsection is full with bad comments from people who consider themselves to be better than the rest (which they definately not always are!).

Here is a very nice example of one of the few topics in this freikorpssection i tried to participate in and in which you too shouted something that was totally wrong and based on zero evidence, which was later proven with evidence by others:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=685587

Again, not meant as bad as it maybe sounds, but if you make comments like above you can expect a reply like this too.

There are much more experienced collectors than only the few regulars who post in almost every topic in the freikorps section, but they stay away because of a comment like this.

Back ontopic, shall we?

[Brian L.]

You seem a little overly sensitive.

I'd hardly call what I wrote in the linked thread (in only one post by the way) "shouting". I just expressed an opinion about those cardboard badges, based on logic, which proved to be incorrect. But, I didn't profess to be an expert on the topic of the TR cardboard day badges (which I have no interest in).

But, with regards to Freikorps material, such as the Baltic Cross being discussed here, it's a different story.

While I always hesitate using the word "Expert", which implies infallibility, I nevertheless consider myself pretty knowledgeable, having been interested in Freikorps for 45 years and having learned from people like Verkuilen Ager and Gerhard Klietmann who were true experts in the field.

In regards to Baltic crosses: A LOT have passed through my hands over the years and I therefore, can only use that as a reference point when I say I find the one in question here "troubling".

Could I be wrong? Sure. I'm not infallible and therefore not an "Expert". But, based on what I know from the many crosses I've personally seen, I likely would not want this one in my collection.

An opinion was asked for and I gave one. People, including 'touchy feely' guys like you can choose to ignore it.

We generally get along quite well on this forum. But, it seems to me that everytime a Nazi collector drops by, there's some sort of dust-up. There was another altercation not long ago on the imperial forum, when one of the TR dudes stumbled by and got his knickers in a knot about something and starting getting all hot and bothered with people.

All I can say is, It's just a hobby. We're not curing cancer here. Chill out.

[jabnus]

Sensitive? Ha! That seems to be your standart answer when questioned? Same as call out TR collectors and belittle them by calling them out to not get along well and as knowledgeable as yourself.

Fact of the matter is again in this last reply you consider yourself better than others, which with all due respect, you definately are not always. While im not a strict Freikorps collectors myself (and neither TR too by the way!) there are certain Freikorps border area's in which i collect. The reason for my last two replies is to show that you are not always right, yet you present yourself as THE big expert because you knew certain old time collectors and have handled a number of crosses. Who says you're the only one? Why is this of any value at all in this dicsussion about (now) a Baltic cross or last time we ran into eachother those early paper Stahlhelmbund tinnies? Easy: it's not!


Maybe instead of givng "opinions" try giving facts??? If i didnt reply in the paper tinnies thread people would have believed your word on it and all those dozens of badges were giving the thumbs up, and yes that's not just freikorps, it crossed more forumsections like (early)political tinnies and SS as well. Did you come with any evidence then? No sir. Now back to this topic: without any evidence or backup you state this Baltic cross is bad, only "because you knew old time collectors and have handled a number of crosses over the years"? Wow....


The worst is that you type this last reply in a way that makes it to the better reader (after a few reads) clear that you COULD be wrong, but still don't know for sure. This is bad, very very bad.

Now lets look at the cross again, what do we see?

The front looks totally convincing and nothing like real fake Baltic crosses that are identified (e.g the shape of the fleur de lis) , and more imortantly the reverse has a Meybauer maker mark. Ok, those are faked too as we know, but... the hardware also appears to be the same as on other (rarer) Meybauer pieces. These are not opinions here, just facts. Now i wonder, would a faker go to the trouble of adding such rare Meybauer hardware (or a fake Mayebauer stamp for that matter) to a fake badge? or would he choose IF he was making a fake Meybauer badge for the more widely accepted hardware? I say the last and thus this is in favor a lot for this badge. Do we also keep in mind that production of these went on for a long period of time and that certain makers used different hardware over time? And also important: does the russian book (which i admit i don't have) show each and every variation ever made??? Do we know all types ever made?? Certain awards like e.g IAB's or GAB's have been studied intensely with numerous variations identified (and yes those are TR awards, but that's not the point), this area of Baltic cross collecting hasn't as far as i know been studied that deep, yet perhaps equally much variations exist. Dismissing certain types because someone "thinks" they are bad, based only on what he handled himself over the years is not the correct way of doing research i think and harms this area of collecting again a lot. You are one of the biggest posters who responds in about each and every topic on this forum, you have a big name as such and can make or break certain items, such a "power" should be used more wisely as just giving "opinions" that can destroy items forever.


You don't want it for your collection? That's ok, neither did i want e.g the cardboard tinnies, but you are the same person who also DID SAY in the only topic on cardboard tinnies on the largest forum of the world that all the dozens and dozens of different cardboard tinnies were good, wereas the thousands of them that are available are all fake. See the point i try to make? In the same manner you respond here and with the same belittle-ing comments towards other collectors. That is not good. Instead of replying again and call yourself "pretty knowledgable" why simply every now and then don't make a reply with opinions and try posting facts that really help? Maybe then also the freikorps section would see more collectors join that now don't even bother to join the discussion.

[Don D.]

This thread is done.