Two Stahlhelmbund badges, real or fake?

[Jo Rivett]

:-(

Gaston, yes i know, and that is why i decided to join this thread, and post a load of old cobblers.

To once more, use an ICP term, "It`s not all good!" (good pronounced Guud)
Once the forensic chapter is read and understood, i am sure you wont be alone either in your interest. BUT.... the reply from you was lacking.. dearly lacking one very important thing, namely something to the tune of:
"Please host a few of the micro-images"

I can point you to dozens of threads where there are questions raised, and as soon as an "expert" comes along and waves his hand-of-assurance, all is well, no more questions, and, as one poster on WAF so clearly said to me last week, concerning fantasy badges, "I was told that they are original and it is my prerogative to believe that."

I have also said a few times now, that once this "in-depth" analysis under magnification is understood, and implemented on other items, it will be tears before bedtime. I meant everything i said in my book (yes, even the bad things), and was not joking when i said we need to turn the clocks back and start over.

I can see the forensic side coming into play more and more in the future, and therefore when someone says that they have done a "forensic test" then ask them to show what they discovered, no matter who it is. Make sure that they are correctly interpreting the images, and make sure that indeed such a test was even carried out - properly!

The attachments issue i wont even discuss here, as most of what was being made by the attachment makers in 1920 is being made today - by attachment makers. I did a short article on attachments in the IMC vol 3/1, that explains everything, and explains why we cannot take a small, replaceable part of an item, which is still made today, and use it to judge the actual item. Anyone thinking on retorting to this, would do well to actually read the article first before sharing what they think they know.

TEARS BEFORE BEDTIME GASTON

A few things in my first post were correct. But a few things were also absurd. How i can just recently write an article on attachments for a magazine (apparently) read by many members on WAF, and then post the complete opposite on a forum?

So, the attachment is a period and common one, (and definitely not modern)

Never mind, my sick sense of humor i guess, and an old trait of possibly trying to coax, or even force, a response from someone. I should possibly stop this, and just write like a normal human, give a thumbs up and be done with it - if anything.

The word Laserjet was mentioned too, as was "base material" In this case, the base material would be - Pappe, or even better, PAPER, a material that is pretty much the same today as it was during the TR. So, quite really a preposterous assumption or claim there from me. Never mind, Swiss humor maybe?

Yes, pictures of my badge - OK. IMAGE 1.

Pictures of period printed festabzeichen taken under the scope, as well as all manner of printed paper as it is found around that time.
IMAGE 2.

More images period printed matter, IMAGE 3.
In this next image, IMAGE 3., N° 1 is a close-up from a paper HANDWERK abzeichen, image N°2. is a close-up of another period paper abzeichen, and N°.3 & 4. are close-ups of the 157 standarte abzeichen..... HUSTON, we seem to have a problem.

IMAGE 4. A close-up of the beige background, which is? Beige? - one color -, like we would normally see the color beige on period badges/paper/magazines? Or do we see something that resembles a Laser printer, tintenstrahldrucker etc etc.. take your pick.

Yes, "period pappe" indeed! sorry, but ein bisschen spaß muss sein.
Carry on Gaston, you know it makes sense... and the great thing about detailed images, they speak for themselves, and cant have "opinions" added to them.

NOW, to find the info on the first tintenstrahldrucker... that may possibly have been invented by Himmler himself

[Wood]

HUSTON, we seem to have a problem.

I see you are coming around to our point of view (I think)
Is your badge printed on both sides (The 1932 Standarte 157 badge)
Pete

[Jo Rivett]

I see you are coming around to our point of view (I think)
Is your badge printed on both sides (The 1932 Standarte 157 badge)
Pete

I think ▬ means that you have read this thread and are not quite sure whats going on? ha ha ha ha ha same here really. (although i guess my first post didnt help) Same goes for many threads. A "good" thread, like this has the potential to be, needs to have someone look it over after alls said and done, and take out only the useful bits, leave the opinions and jokes out, and compose a brief, but informative article. Otherwise all this stuff gets lost in forum-space.

To answer your questions. I know of only one way that a color, beige in this instance - or mustard yellow even is achieved by plotting a range of other colors together. In this case you can see the main colors, magenta, blue, yellow, black ▬ and this would be with a plotter, or a tintenstrahldrucker.

No, it is not really printed on both sides - although it is
It is simply two individual printed pieces of paper, stuck onto a thick piece of card.
IMAGE OF ABOVE MENTIONED 2 SAID PRINTED PAPER STICKING TO CARD

[jabnus]

errrrmmmm....

I had to read these last replies a few times before they made sense, it seems that our different mother languages (im slowly starting to understand that Swiss translated to English is a language that needs a lot of reading between the lines of sick humor? ) are playing me tricks. Having said this, im so very glad with your images, because if i understand it correctly now (after three times reading!) it appears that the colour beige on the 1932 Standarte 157 badge is a modern mixture of (modern) colors and it is made by a modern inktjet printer? Thus proving forensically too that they are fake? The last picture of the opened up badge, showing both sides, is very interesting too! So not even cardboard but thin paper? This is really great information. If possible please add these pics to the thread instead of external hosts, these need to be preserved for future browsing and learning.

With every post like this it's still more and more fun. I have been experimenting a bit more with my bad scope on metal badges but not on anything paper yet, very interesting to see the result and age marks! I hope to soon order the one you advised me recently and am looking forward to experimenting more and see those results. Lets hope your book will open up many eyes on the forum and people will start to learn all over. I vote for a new forumsection in which specific threads with only forensic evidence can be posted! How about you being moderator of such section since you are most up to date with how to use this method? Im not kidding, the future of collecting promises to be anything but silent, but all the more educating!

Regarding the attachment devices i wanted to post tonight a very long comparrison picture with dozens of examples but it seems now that you have done this already before? I don't have that magazine but am very interested in it so think ill have to backorder one.

Dinnertime now, i've probably forgotten to reply to a dozen of things, so more tonight.

best regards,
Gaston


ps: if i forgot to ask for micropictures that was because i was in a hurry and only asked for you to show your badge. From now on please always add these whenever possible in topics where run into eachother, it's a real benefit and i love to see them!

[Jo Rivett]

Hi Gaston
It was me, who hijacked the thread
After i read it, i was like you are now, a bit confused. I saw people`s opinions swaying, changing, things being talked about and kind of used as defining arguments, that shouldn't be. For example the attachments. So i guess my rather strange sense of humor got the best of me.

What it boils down to Gaston, are two very simple points, that can easily be observed under magnification, and are conclusive, regardless of what anyone thinks.

• The image was printed not by printing plate, screen print or transfer, but with a plotter, needle point printer, laser-jet - call it what you will i dont really know what the correct term would be.

• Both obverse and reverse image, are the identical print, showing the identical printing errors. (IMAGE)

So logically, not theoretically, but logically, if you want to say that this badge is a genuine TR item, then you must prove, that:

1. This method of printing was indeed around at the time that this badge was made, and be able to show proof of this on other, similar items at that time.

2. This method of sticking two identical printed images onto card, was indeed a way in which genuine and known TR badges of this caliber were made.

Quite simple really, no other opinions are needed. Well they are if you want a bit of fun, but in order to be sure, you only need to answer those two questions. And maybe someone can?

Sorry no-can-do with the images, i cant upload directly, and yes, they will soon be gone from that host because of the HK. A nice thought, but i do not want to be a mod, i am already on one forum, and to be honest it`s a stressful job indeed.

[Jo Rivett]

Gaston, i forgot to mention that the micro-patina doesn't just apply to my party badges, but will work with a normal festabzeichen as well. If it has been there and done it, it will let you know. (LAST IMAGE) It`s far from rocket science, you just need to understand it, and accept it

[Wood]

This method of sticking two identical printed images onto card, was indeed a way in which genuine and known TR badges of this caliber were made.

Really, All the ones I have encountered have been single sided. Can you provide an image of such a badge?
Regards,
Pete

[Jo Rivett]

Really, All the ones I have encountered have been single sided. Can you provide an image of such a badge?
Regards,
Pete

OK, i get it, that`s revenge for my Hijacking. Had to come i guess.

I fear you need to go back, and copy the whole sentence, as well as the heading which it is under, and you need to pose that question to someone else, the same as i did.

[jabnus]

In response to post #50:

Again i agree and this topic would have been much easier if i could have had the badges in hand (and if i already had the good scope) to investigate. Unfortunately we don't have on forehand everything at hand we like to buy. The things we run into online can't be checked before we buy them with forensics.

So, a long as someone hasn't got a badge it's only possible to go after known facts. I'll be the first to admit that the first two pages of this thread have been "old school" research -> go for period books/publications (so glad i remembered the poster!) and compare that to known original examples. We were already convinced the whole line of strange coloured badges were bad for all the reasons typed: attachments, wide pins, colours, sudden available number of the same badges at different online places, same people selling more than one at once, etc. None of these characteristics on it's own are definitive conclusive on their own, but all together at least enough for anyone with two brain cells to have serious doubts. What it lacks however is that definitive answer and that is where the forensics will be the future (of course you know this but many people reading this topic probably see this all for the first time).

For a long time to come collectors will at best still try the same as we did on the first two pages of this topic, but the problem is that many people have no acces to period evidence and also that many evidence may not have surfaced yet (the orange Arbeitsdank badge comes to mind or the colored NSKK badges, or... et cetera). From now on i have no doubt that (slowly?) more and more collectors will go for the forensics and what is really needed is that we get more topics like this one to prove how usefull it is. Statements like in the old days like "someone famous or more experienced told me so" or for example some of the things typed on the first page of this topic, will then be not important (and wrong) anymore.

There is a lot to learn in this area (i was pleasantly surprised to see the paperwork pictures with damage!) but this can not be stopped anymore.


I didn't realise you were not an association member and now understand why you posted the external links. Would it be ok if i used all this and make a little article over the next days (which i will upload of course!) regarding these badges? The topic may be confusing in it's current form, but all the information is here.

best regards,
Gaston

[Jo Rivett]

Hi Gaston, yes sure. Use whatever you want.
The more you start looking at items in this manner, the more tears there will be.
another, very last image. R.I.P

At least the creator stained the edges, so the buyer would not see straight away that it was indeed not a quality piece, worthy of the RM0,10. , but two poxy pieces of paper stuck together. Respect

If you like i`ll mail you the thing. And then we can see if you reach the same conclusion → 2 self adhesiveness labels, run through a printer, and then stuck to each other?

[jabnus]

Yes since hearing from the forensics first time i've been looking at many items different already and can't believe how lucky i have been to not have gotten some of those. No tears here yet but im sure i too made a mistake somewehere.

Eveyone gets burned at some point but im very glad to be a bit paranoid if it comes to spending money The two badges that started this topic have been sold though and this shows that someone will be unhappy when reading this topic in the future. I wonder how many different badges of this "series" of fakes exist and have no doubt we will see more in the future.

Thanks for this last photo and the offer to sent it, im ok though and only wish i could photoshop better. Your pictures look good! Not often we see items being discussed from the inside!!!