INteresting question about Freikorps service ?

[mravery]

Here is a question to pose to the "All Knowing".....

If an officer was on active duty during the 20's and served in the Freikorps and was awarded either the Baltic cross or Silesian Eagle.....

Would they show up in the Officers ranklists along with the other Imperial awards ??

Cheers
Mark

[Rick Research]

No. They never did. While the Reichsmarine allowed wear of all sorts of private veterans awards and Freikorps decorations (because of the different nature of Freikorps service in the navy), the army did not even allow wear of these awards after about 1920 until 1933.

Also, VERY few Reichsheer officers were drawn from the ranks of Freikorps personnel, while MANY of the Reichsmarine's officers were.

[mravery]

Huh ????????

Ok Rick,

Now I'm really confused (not a hard thing to do)....

Are you saying that the Army never allowed it's officers to wear the Freikorps badges or that they never published them in the rank liksts ??

Case in point and question:

In Angolia's 'military awards of the 3rd reich' page 18, it shows GenLt Herman Fischer (Heer) wearing a Baltic Cross. According to 'Die Generale des Heeres 1921-1945' book 3, It has him as active duty assigned to Inf. Reg. #14 and Inf. Reg. #18 during this time period ????

Where I am trying to go with this is (yes.. You guessed it... GenLt Hansen's uniform).. is to place the loops on the tunic.... During that period, Hansen was assigned to 4th Battalion, Regiment Stobbe (Dec. 1918 - Aug. 1919), 8th Reichswehr Infantry Regiment (Aug. 1919 - Oct. 1920), then 12th Infantry Regiment (Oct. 1920 - 1923).

Soooooooo, I guess I'm looking for an Order of Battle etc. for these units during this time frame to see if he qulified for any of the Freikorp's awards etc... (it's called.. fishing

Thanks
Mark

[Rick Research]

Freikorps awards, being "campaign" awards, were a class of decoration that was normally NEVER listed in German Rank Lists. Bavarian and Württemberg pre-WW1 lists were the only ones that listed such awards-- whether for 1866 or China.

Freikorps decorations--even the ones subsequently made official state awards--were never listed in Rank Lists.

To my knowledge, after about 1920 (maybe 1921) when the last of the "organic" Freikorps transfers (that is, ones where any actual block of men were taken over into army service... as a "unit") had blended these men into "regular" Regular units (and Freikorps "tradition" insignia was no longer allowed for wear), the awards themselves were not authorized for WEAR until (as I recall) about 1933. The German army under the Weimar Republic placed similar wearing restrictions on other awards, such as those of the German Red Cross.

The Weimar era navy was much laxer, and allowed all sorts of things to be worn in uniform-- the Skagerrak veterans' medal, Freikorps awards.... But it never LISTED them.

To my knowledge, NO "Regular Army" units participated in ANY Freikorps action-- one reason why the army looked down their noses at such service. The units were raised as volunteers and especially for the "unofficial" fighting along the new and unsettled Polish borders, that involved "plausible deniability." Even the Marine Brigades were composed entirely of "volunteers."

Since the navy had mutinied in November 1918, THEIR Freikorps men were regarded as the loyal hard core cadre-- and treated as such. But the Regular Army sat in barracks polishing their boots until most were paid out in March-April 1920, declining involvement in street unrest or border combat. The ARMY command therefore regarded Freikorps as undiciplined armed mobs and admitted few such "characters" into their "pure" ranks.

Independent thinking and self-motivated initiative DID seem to play a role in Freikorps duty. Interestingly enough, reading the biographies of Luftwaffe generals who were court martialed during WW2, almost to a man (if religious principles was not the cause), they were ex-Freikorps officers: unused to suffering fools (Göring and Hitler) gladly.

[mravery]

back at ya !

Ok Rick.......

How about this......

Hansen was "Commander of the IV Battalion, Regiment Stobbe" from December 16, 1918 to August 1, 1919....

From what I have read, the Freikorps regiments were named after thier commanders.....

Do you think that this was one of the Freikorps units ? (time period sounds about right)...

Also..... with 'no regular' army units participating in the Freikorps conflicts.... how can we explain Herman Fischer 's active duty assignments to Inf. Reg. #14 and Inf. Reg. #18 during this time period and him wearing the Baltic Cross....... ????



There is a good article about the Freikorps at:

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/HUMCEN...ch/scott1.html

One section states:
"By virtue of Allied anxiety over a potential Bolshevik threat, the German forces were permitted to advance into the Baltics to engage the Russian Army in February of 1919.36 The High Command, hoping to quickly occupy and use the Baltics as a bargaining chip in the peace process, committed full resources to the task. The Iron Division, an amalgam of Freikorps under Major Josef Bischoff formed around the remnants of the German 8th Army (last in action a few months earlier on the same ground) led the assault. The capture of Riga, on May 22, 1919, proved the "high-water mark" of the Freikorps’ military successes.37 Not surprisingly, the assault on the strongly defended city used the infiltration tactics of a stormtroop offensive. The leading elements of the roving companies reached the citadel at the city center in the height of the fighting.38 The volunteers were too successful, as it turned out. The farther the Russians fell back, the more concerned the Allies became of a German martial threat. Despite two Allied orders to the Ebert government to call back its troops, dissolve its volunteer corps, and renounce any claim on the region, the war continued through the twice mutinous tenacity of Freikorps fighters, unwilling to be stabbed in the back again. "

The section about the German 8th Army has me confused... Were they still involved in the engagement or ?????

Humm something to ponder ...

See ya
Mark

[Rick Research]

Stobbe was from Rhenish Pioneer Battalion 8, and went on into the Reichsheer as an infantry(!?) officer.

I don't find a "Regiment Stobbe" in Harold Gordon's listing of INDEPENDENT Freikorps, but it may have been a subsidiary unit in something like General Maercker's "Division."

As for an explanation... ain't got one. Either he was detached elsewhere, the record's wrong (that does happen sometimes) or maybe he is NOt actually wearing a Baltic Cross. I dunno, me!

I don't have the Angolia book, so perhaps if you could post the photo in question, his other awards might reveal whether Angolia had the correct one of multiple Fischers.

[mravery]

Well,

I guess we will have to wait and see what the archives send back in regards to Herr Hansen's service record....Because at this point I'm still unsure (also to the loops for the Spange 1st class and no listing of actual combat after his recall to service in '38)...

I would love to find a photo of him circa '41-'42 time frame..... !

Cheers
Mark