Announcement

**Kozlov** · 04-16-2005, 03:25 AM

Guys, don't ever get the idea that we wear the uniforms to strut around and look important!

Whilst some of you might be happy seeing unfiorms and equipment in glass cases, a lot of public are quite frankly bored by that kind of presentation of history. Our more active approach sparks interest and just maybe causes some who would not have bothered otherwise to go read some books and visit museums to learn more.

Consider us as the glossy advertising brochure for history lessons

**Mike G.** · 04-16-2005, 04:19 AM

That's an interesting observation - The "Public".

The "Public" doesn't fit into the equation for many collectors. It isn't for instance, important that the public know I have a collection. In fact, I'd rather the public didn't. I suspect this is true for many collectors.

While on the other hand, Re-enactment is definitely a "Public" venue.

Its also true that many types of articles collected do not lend themselves to Re-enactment. The older (Dark Collar era) uniforms and the older (earlier issue decorations and awards) are probably far too costly and rare to be considered attire for Re-enactment.

But on the other hand, you gotta wonder what Iannima's group would look like marching in Dark Collar era attire.

**oldflagswanted** · 04-16-2005, 04:55 AM

...re-enactors/collectors vs. the public/media...

Originally posted by Michael D. Gallagher

...It isn't ...important that the public know I have a collection. In fact, I'd rather the public didn't. I suspect this is true for many collectors. ... many types of articles collected do not lend themselves to Re-enactment. ...are probably far too costly and rare...

The public has no clue, even when told, how rare an item might be. They just don't have the same interest or passion that a collector and I guess a re-enactor has for such items. The following made it recently into the public media ... (April 5, 2005) It's Living History - Although none of the items in his collection were for sale, one exhibitor at the recent Bay Area Military (BAM) antique show proudly displayed his Swiss and Croatian military articles to browsers because "antiques offer a sense of history that can't be found in textbooks."

Historical military clothing, hardware and art ran rampant at Centennial
Hall in Hayward Saturday, April 2 as BAM offered its semi-annual show to
collectors, history buffs and those interested in the human stories behind
combat narratives. Organizers enjoyed the show's largest attendance to date.
According to the founder of the event, 350 people had already arrived
by 10 a.m. He said he expected many more by the time the show ended at 4 p.m.

Dozens of art, history and antique enthusiasts set up tables at the show to
sell their items, chat about their collections or simply perpetuate the
history behind their collections. [OldFlagsWanted] has been collecting war antiques for 35 years. Draped behind his station were three large flags with Nazi swastikas on them. Although these symbols certainly set his table apart,
Nazi and World War II antiques are not necessarily his primary collecting
interests.

"I try to change it and do a different theme each show, but I cover all
periods, all nations," said [OldFlagswanted].

[OldFlagsWanted] mentioned that he had items dating back as early as 1761 from England, and as recent as contemporary wars fought in Iraq and Rwanda. Like most exhibitors at the show, the common theme that links his collection spanning hundreds of years and thousands of miles is that they are all associated with armed forces.

Exhibitors filled Centennial Hall with virtually every type of military-
related article, including pendants, flags, medals, knives, swords and
helmets. Although the collections covered many different wars and battles
from all around the world, the time period most commonly represented was
World War II. Weed explained that World War II has the greatest amount of
surviving and available items than any other war.

Civilian dress was common, but a few took advantage of the ambiance to
browse in full military uniform. [Some] appeared straight out of the 40's in a well-groomed U.S. officer's uniform[s]. ...explain[ing] that one of [their] avocations is participation in a big band swing band called "The Bawmhrs" (Bay Area Women and Men's Historical Reenactment Society) who dress in vintage clothing and will be playing aboard the USS Hornet on
April 16.

Chatting with a vendor at another display, two "GI's," ... finished their discussion and joined a German soldier, ...who was browsing through a rack of authentic clothing for an addition to his uniform. The "German" said that his camouflage hat and helmet were authentic and during World War II, Americans often discarded similar gear since it made it difficult to distinguish between friendly and enemy forces.

The Bay Area Military antique show takes place twice a year. [It was]
established ... three years ago after a Southern California show
was discontinued [this] especially motivated [the] host [of] this event
because "they are vanishing." He said, "A lot of the original collectors
are starting to pass away, not a lot of young kids are picking up where
they left off."

[The hosts] antique collection of Japanese swords was a bit different from most of the other exhibits at the show. His collection served as a good "segue into military antiques." He added that the reason he accepted the task of promoting this show is "to keep the wonderful educational tradition of antique shows alive."

"It's living history," ... "If you forget about history it's going to come around and get you." Looking around the large room filled with exhibitors, he spoke about the information available to those who visit the exhibition. "These individuals have spent a lot of time and expense learning about the things they collect and they love to talk about them." He added, "I like to host an event where everyone can enjoy themselves and have a good time."
<hr><br><center>OldFlagsWanted.com</center><center><img src=http://home.att.net/~b.k.weed/nzflagwave.gif></center>

**Kozlov** · 04-16-2005, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by Michael D. Gallagher

The older (Dark Collar era) uniforms and the older (earlier issue decorations and awards) are probably far too costly and rare to be considered attire for Re-enactment.

Costly?!

Have you any idea what someone wearing a German or US WW2 field uniform and equipment set has spent on it? Even though its repro...

Maybe the very highest awards are in the same league, but all this Eastern Bloc Cold War stuff for re-enactment is *very* cheap compared to doing WW2!

My entire Soviet wardrobes full are less value than a single German WW2 infantryman's gear!

Ok, I don't collect the rare and exotic, but you must see what I mean...

**Mike G.** · 04-16-2005, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by Kozlov

Costly?!

Have you any idea what someone wearing a German or US WW2 field uniform and equipment set has spent on it? Even though its repro...

Maybe the very highest awards are in the same league, but all this Eastern Bloc Cold War stuff for re-enactment is *very* cheap compared to doing WW2!

My entire Soviet wardrobes full are less value than a single German WW2 infantryman's gear!

Ok, I don't collect the rare and exotic, but you must see what I mean...

I can't comment on "Living History" shows in Great Britain. I've never been to one.

In the U.S. I've attended several Air and Vehicle shows where vintage planes from WW1 up through Desert Storm were displayed, along with ground vehicles spanning the same time range. At these events always were "Living History" groups, or what some may term, Re-enactors. Most were WWII and primarily consisted of US or Soviet for some reason. Of interest, was that in talking with them, I learned most, if not all their clothing attire, was Replicated. It was damned good - in fact perfect. But it was replica attire. Even the Soviet guys. Some items, such as helmets and the weapons were real, but the clothing was not.

One show that was hosted very near to where I live struck my interest because members that were still alive from the famous "Flying Tigers" were going to be there. So my wife and I went. To my surprise were a large group of Soviet "Living History" WWII guys Bivouacked at the site. Eventually we engaged in conversation with a group of about 11. My wife brought up that I had Soviet Military Clothing as part of my DDR Collection. I embarrassedly expressed that it would be of no interest to them as it was all Cold War era. To my surprise they were very interested. Again, most of what they were wearing was replicated WWII Soviet, and not real. To make a long story short, when the 3 day event was over, 5 of the guys came out to where I live to see my Collection. It was interesting to see their antics as they pawed over the Soviet Cold War era stuff. What was so entralling to them was that the stuff was real, and a Soviet Soldier or Officer actually at one time possessed and had worn the clothing. This was the hook. Even though it was a static display, it was still to these guys, "Living History".

That is what I like about Iannima's group. Most of what they wear when they re-enact is real. The clothing is real.

But a lot of re-enactment groups due to the era they re-enact, or the military country they re-enact, can't afford to go out in public with the real deal. They opt instead for replica uniforms, many of which are produced by specialised firms engaged in this specific venue, and are exact copies of the real thing.

I enjoy re-enactment groups and respect what they represent. I just don't do it. Just like many of them don't do what I engage in. And even people who do collect, for the most part don't collect for the same reasons I do. Each to their own. And each should be respected for their individual passions.

As to comments about US WWII vs. DDR Clothing costs - dependent upon the era (Dark Collar) DDR Clothing is very expensive. I have a Color Piped Rear Services ensemble that set me back 1200 EURO. Recently a General's Tunic from that era sold for over 3000 EURO. But I doubt seriously anyone collecting this era of DDR military memorabilia, is going to wear it in a re-enactment group. I'm surprised to hear that WWII US Re-enactment groups do wear items of clothing of similar cost.

To my knowledge, replicas of DDR NVA Dark Collar era clothing do not yet exist, as stocks of the correct clothing material are non-existent or in short supply, and no one is at this time making it. So Wehrmacht replica clothing vs. NVA Dark Collar era clothing is apples to oranges.

**AR-11** · 04-16-2005, 11:46 AM

Gentlemen,
is somebody intrested in knowing "Living History Events" in Germany?
I found this link:

http://nva.bizhat.com/nvaintro.htm

These are the " quite hard " Ex-NVA fans.

AR-11

**Kozlov** · 04-16-2005, 01:55 PM

Michael,

Yes we wear ridiculously expensive gear to roll around in the mud with!

Have a look at some of the dealers in WW2 stuff:

http://www.atthefront.com
http://www.lostbattalions.com/german2idx.html

Etc etc

I don't think the weird and wonderful stuff you describe would ever be used, simply because most of us don't portray generals, marshals etc etc

The bloke you see dressed as a 101st paratrooper for D-day is probably wearing best part of $2000+ worth of gear, a well dressed SS man the same. They probably have some original items of field gear, but the uniforms will definitely be repro.

Me in my Kampfgruppen getup is more like $50

Or Soviet Motor rifles for about $200

Don't get me wrong, the Warsaw Pact stuff is not big in the UK, there is our friends with the colour party in this thread plus the lot I deploy with who are more into field uniforms and field deployments with weapons, radios, camm nets etc

Similarly other post-WW2 stuff is also relatively minor - Vietnam, Gulf War, Bosnia etc etc

Tell you what, you guys should come over to the big show over here, its where that colour party photo was taken - "The War & Peace show", 5 days, massive militaria market and the largest military vehicle show in the world! Well worth a trip if you get a chance...

Andy

**Mike G.** · 04-16-2005, 06:47 PM

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the links.

I get your point.

By the way, the DDR NVA Rear Services ensemble I mentioned that cost EURO 1200 was not a General or Marshal, or even a Field Grade Officer. It was a Lieutenant. So the DDR stuff, depending upon which decade the attire was produced, can be very expensive too.

It would be nice to take in the War and Peace show on a visit, but truthfully, it is all I can do just to get away every two years and visit Berlin. I wish I had more holiday time, but that is one of the curses of being American.

Cheers,

Michael

**torstenbel** · 05-16-2005, 10:04 AM

Hi Matteo, in line with the purpose of this thread...I just found this photo and I thought you might be interested...it is the Vereidigung (Swearing in ceremony) of the officer cadets at the OHS in Zittau in 1987. I am in there somewhere being sworn to protect world peace, the DDR and socialism in general...

,...but I have no idea, which one of the troops on the photo is ours...so, this is the Fahnenkommando of the OHS Zittau in 1987. Cheers, Torsten.

Attached Files

vereidg_1987_001.jpg (66.7 KB, 134 views)

**torstenbel** · 05-16-2005, 10:33 AM

and here is another of the actual swearing in...Cheers, Torsten (ebay id german.militaria).

Attached Files

vereidg_1987_003.jpg (75.3 KB, 138 views)

**Mike G.** · 05-16-2005, 03:56 PM

Those are great photographs Torsten. Thank you for posting them.

Interesting to note the "Chalk Marks" on the asphalt, for where the honor guard was to position itself during the ceremony.

**torstenbel** · 05-16-2005, 04:06 PM

I am still working on trying to figure out where about I am on that photo...working on it ...

and should I find out , then I will let you know....

yes, the chalk marks were for the swearers...but they are not on Asphalt, they are on Ash...that my friend is the Stadium of the OHS Zittau...

don't want to know how many litres of sweat I left there...how many times I had to run the 3000 metres in there and then the three HKX I had to do

, which all started in that stadium and I also sat in that stadium watching the performances of our annual sports day, when we were told that Honecker had resigned...lots of memories...

and I am sure that Dirk (AR-11) can also tell a lot of stories about this stadium...Cheers, Torsten.

Originally posted by Michael D. Gallagher

Those are great photographs Torsten. Thank you for posting them.

Interesting to note the "Chalk Marks" on the asphalt, for where the honor guard was to position itself during the ceremony.

**iannima** · 05-17-2005, 01:43 AM

Thank you Torsten!!!

two marvelous pictures to be added to my collection of parades...

And I do hope you will be able to locate your platoon... as I have now become very fond of your other picture of the 1989 parade.
I find that the childlike sweetness of the scribbled arrow identifying you, makes a superb contrast with the massive military might of 144 men inexorably marching in step clasping lethal weapons... A true work of art, perhaps you could submit it to the Tate modern...

One small observation I have is that the issuing of swords seems to have been limited to certain key officers (Fahnenkommando, and a few others) but that most officers just wore the parade dagger. I have seen this on other photographs too.
On another forum (the German speaking one) I managed to gather something about the daggers being issued to the individual officers on a permanent basis, whilst the swords were kept in the Waffenkammer and only issued for the parade itself. I also got a lot of talk (don't know how truthful) about the BW officers smuggling the swords away for souvenirs in 1990, whilst most NVA officers claimed to have lost the dagger and therefore managed to keep it. It must really have felt like a "free for all" in those days and it is frightening to think what could have happened with the "real" weapons as opposed to the show ones like daggers and swords...

**torstenbel** · 05-17-2005, 05:04 AM

yes, I was rather excited to have got that photograph of myself when I put the arrow on and that is why it is a bit like that...

yes, the officers did not have the swords permanently, no idea if it was possible to buy them or not??...but I will try and find out. They were kept somewhere centrally and were only handed to them for parades. The officers had to do the parade training with us just the same to learn what to do with the swords during the parades...as this is not something you learned, unless you needed it. We also had to hand everything back when we left the army and the only things I managed to keep were my parade boots, my officer sleeping bag (which I used for camping a couple of times and then it got too stained with beer and some bodily fluids (mostly the type of fluids induced by heavy alcohol consumption I hasten to clarify...

) so that I just threw it away a long time ago)...and I also got to keep my peaked hat and that is it...and even those I had to smuggle out. They were really quite keen to ensure that everything was returned...the weapons (Kalashnikovs and Makarovs) were locked away in the Waffenkammer of course and were all itemised and listed and I doubt very much that anyone managed to get hold of those...however, I do not know what happened out with the troops and I also do not know what happened with the army when it was disbandened propper as I left on 28th Feb 1990, so that was a little while before it all finished for good. There are a couple more photos of that particular Vereidigung that I am trying to get hold of at the moment and when I do I will post them also...I am in touch with another guy from my platoon and he told me that he had some from his parents and that he would be scanning them in for me at some point...Cheers, Torsten.

Originally posted by iannima

Thank you Torsten!!!

two marvelous pictures to be added to my collection of parades...

And I do hope you will be able to locate your platoon... as I have now become very fond of your other picture of the 1989 parade.
I find that the childlike sweetness of the scribbled arrow identifying you, makes a superb contrast with the massive military might of 144 men inexorably marching in step clasping lethal weapons... A true work of art, perhaps you could submit it to the Tate modern...

One small observation I have is that the issuing of swords seems to have been limited to certain key officers (Fahnenkommando, and a few others) but that most officers just wore the parade dagger. I have seen this on other photographs too.
On another forum (the German speaking one) I managed to gather something about the daggers being issued to the individual officers on a permanent basis, whilst the swords were kept in the Waffenkammer and only issued for the parade itself. I also got a lot of talk (don't know how truthful) about the BW officers smuggling the swords away for souvenirs in 1990, whilst most NVA officers claimed to have lost the dagger and therefore managed to keep it. It must really have felt like a "free for all" in those days and it is frightening to think what could have happened with the "real" weapons as opposed to the show ones like daggers and swords...

Announcement

re-enacting a Fahnenkommando

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