A thread about the Kampfgruppen

[oldflagswanted]

..some named/numbered KG unit flag questions?

...The Kampfgruppen ...founded in 1953 and abolished in 1990. ...many neighborhoods, had their own Kampfgruppen, each made up of about 100 workers. ... By 1989, the KdA's membership exceeded half a million, meaning that one of every 36 East Germans was a member.

Here are some named/numbered KG unit flag questions - any help would be appreciated!:<br>
1. How many KG named/numbered unit flags were there? (~10,000?)
2. Was there only one pattern KG unit flag, and when? (1960-1989?)
3. Did they only come in "Battalion", "Hundredtschaft", and "Zug" levels?
4. Does anyone have a list of KG units that had unit flags? (Order of Battle?)
<br><center>OldFlagsWanted.com</center><center><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/ddrflgm1.gif></center><br><hr>PS/I've been keeping a list of the name/numbered KG unit flags that I've seen available, but have only seen around a dozen - so maybe only a few hundred actually ever existed? Also there is a c.1988 KG info map, but I don't know how BKK/KKK/SK/GES numbers relate to KG Battalion/Hundertschaft/Zug level units? (See next post for map).

[torstenbel]

I cannot give you any exact numbers, etc. but from what I recall seeing at Mayday parades, etc. I would say that they had unit flags from Hundertschaftlevel upwards....every factory unit, i.e. Hundertschaft as a minimum, did present their own flags for these parades...Cheers, Torsten.

Here are some named/numbered KG unit flag questions - any help would be appreciated!:<br>
1. How many KG named/numbered unit flags were there? (~10,000?)
2. Was there only one pattern KG unit flag, and when? (1960-1989?)
3. Did they only come in "Battalion", "Hundredtschaft", and "Zug" levels?
4. Does anyone have a list of KG units that had unit flags? (Order of Battle?)
<br><center>OldFlagsWanted.com</center><center><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/ddrflgm1.gif></center><br><hr>PS/I've been keeping a list of the name/numbered KG unit flags that I've seen available, but have only seen around a dozen - so maybe only a few hundred actually ever existed? Also here is a c.1988 KG info map, but I don't know how BKK/KKK/SK/GES numbers relate to KG Battalion/Hundertschaft/Zug level units?<br><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/kgueber.jpg>

[oldflagswanted]

about KG unit flag levels, is Zug Company size?

I cannot give you any exact numbers, etc. but from what I recall seeing at Mayday parades, etc. I would say that they had unit flags from Hundertschaftlevel upwards....every factory unit, i.e. Hundertschaft as a minimum, did present their own flags for these parades...Cheers, Torsten.

Here is my short list of actual photo verified and still existing KG unit flags. From same I would say that the "Zug" level flag is the most common - is that for a company level (how many men) unit? And so is the unit size "Hundredshaft" the smallest unit, then "Zug", then "Battalion" which seems to be the rarest unit size flag?<br>
********(known KG unit flags)*********
1. #5. Kampfgruppen-Hundredshaft (mot.) Cottbus
2. #145. Kampfgruppen-Hundredshaft Quedlindburg
3. #262. Kampfgruppen-Zug Strausberg (Oliver book)
4. #34. Kampfgruppen-Zug (mot.) Strausberg ("OB")
5. (No#) Kampfgruppen-Zug Forst
6. #?8. Kampfgruppen-Zug Teterow
7. (No#) Kampfgruppen-Zug Neuruppen
8. #? Kampfgruppen-Battalionshaft ?Niberode (OB, pg 93)
9. #64. Kampfgruppen-Zug Freital
-------------------------------------------------------
Also, as posted on this W-A Forum KG thread, from the
c.1988 KG info map, I don't know how BKK/KKK/SK/GES
numbers relate to KG Battalion/Hundertschaft/Zug level
units? So does KKK=Zug? Please ad to the KG unit flag list
if you have seen another photo verified example.<br><center>OldFlagsWanted.com</center><center><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/ddrflgm1.gif></center>

[Kozlov]

My friend just sold 206 Kamfgruppen Zug, Bautzen:

http://www.gunboards.com/militaria/u...4213_flag1.jpg

Also, I just missed on ebay these ones:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEDW%3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[oldflagswanted]

...more about known numbered/named KG unit flags

My friend just sold 206 Kampfgruppen Zug, Bautzen

Thanks, have now added it to the list of known ...
******(photo confirmed DDR KG unit flags)******
1. #5. Kampfgruppen-Hundredshaft (mot.) Cottbus
2. #145. Kampfgruppen-Hundredshaft Quedlindburg
3. #262. Kampfgruppen-Zug Strausberg (Oliver book)
4. #34. Kampfgruppen-Zug (mot.) Strausberg ("OB")
5. (No#) Kampfgruppen-Zug Forst
6. #?8. Kampfgruppen-Zug Teterow
7. (No#) Kampfgruppen-Zug Neuruppen
8. #? Kampfgruppen-Battalionshaft ?Niberode (OB, pg 93)
9. #64. Kampfgruppen-Zug Freital ---> was in Australia
10.#206 Kampfgruppen-Zug Bautzen ---> just sold. (2005)
***************************************
Zug level (whatever that is) still remains the most common,
if one can call only a handfull of these flags as such? <br><center>Oldflagswanted.com</center><center><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/ddrflgm1.gif></center>

[torstenbel]

well, there you go.;.I had not thought that they had designated unit flags down to Zug level...learned something new.. I think the equivalent to Zug in English would be a Platoon and it is the next lower unit to make up a Company or Battery in the Army...I would have thought that there will have been about 30 men in a Zug and 3 Zuege would have probably made up a Hundertschaft in the Kampfgruppen...but this is only my guess...Cheers, Torsten (ebay id german.militaria).

PS: I also had a look at the banner of the KG units at parade...I saw it on www.kampfgruppen.de

Thanks, have now added it to the list of known ...
******(photo confirmed DDR KG unit flags)******
1. #5. Kampfgruppen-Hundredshaft (mot.) Cottbus
2. #145. Kampfgruppen-Hundredshaft Quedlindburg
3. #262. Kampfgruppen-Zug Strausberg (Oliver book)
4. #34. Kampfgruppen-Zug (mot.) Strausberg ("OB")
5. (No#) Kampfgruppen-Zug Forst
6. #?8. Kampfgruppen-Zug Teterow
7. (No#) Kampfgruppen-Zug Neuruppen
8. #? Kampfgruppen-Battalionshaft ?Niberode (OB, pg 93)
9. #64. Kampfgruppen-Zug Freital ---> was in Australia
10.#206 Kampfgruppen-Zug Bautzen ---> just sold. (2005)
***************************************
Zug level (whatever that is) still remains the most common,
if one can call only a handfull of these flags as such? <br><center>Oldflagswanted.com</center><center><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/ddrflgm1.gif></center><br><hr>PS/Here is a DDR KG unit parade review showing what looks like 100 man (10x10) formations, each with a maybe KG Hundredshafts unit flag?<br><img src=http://kampfgruppen.de/bilder/kg_animation4.gif>

[David H]

Old flags, Here are a few bits and bobs for you.

Firstly an early pattern KG standard from the 50's '1.HS (Hunderschaft I presume) Kirschau'. The reverse has the same design including name

[David H]

Secondly an early standard for the KG at Babelsberg, this one is quite rare. It has the pole top similar to yours (not displayed). It all came in a box to me, unfortunately missing its pole, but including the bound units history with names and photos from 1953 to 1978 plus the original makers invoice for the flag presented in 1958!!!

[David H]

Finally some more names for you list

107. Kampfgruppen Hunderschaft Dresden (DHH)

155. Kampfgruppen Hunderschaft Dresden (DHH)

203. Kampfgruppen Zug Bautzen (DHH)
and yes this one did come from the same place as the 206 Bautzen flag, but I sold that one on a few years ago!!! strange how its surfaced again!!

[oldflagswanted]

List Update of known DDR KG Wreath Pattern Unit flags.

DHH:
Thanks for your great early KG flag photos, and also for
providing more examples for the listing of known:
******** Wreath Pattern KG unit flags *******
1. #5. Kampfgruppen-Hundertshaft Cottbus (source OFW)
2. #145. Kampfgruppen-Hundertshaft Quedlindburg (*, eBay #1167945870)
3. #262. Kampfgruppen-Zug Strausberg (Oliver book)
4. #34. Kampfgruppen-Zug (mot.) Strausberg (Oliver Book)
5. (No#) Kampfgruppen-Zug Forst (*=online photo verified)
6. #?8. Kampfgruppen-Zug Teterow (*)
7. (No#) Kampfgruppen-Zug Neuruppen (*)
8. #? Kampfgruppen-Bataillonshaft ?Niberode (Oliver Book, pg 93) <-- ???
9. #64. Kampfgruppen-Zug Freital (*)
10. #206. Kampfgruppen-Zug Bautzen (*, & formerly DHH)
11. #1. Kampfgruppen-Bataillon (mot.) Berlin (1983-KG books)
12. #107. Kampfgruppen-Hundertschaft Dresden (source DHH)
13. #155. Kampfgruppen-Hundertschaft Dresden (source DHH)
14. #203. Kampfgruppen-Zug Bautzen (source DHH)
15. #62. Kampfgruppen-Zug ?location? (eBay #6132614203 Nov04)
16. #? Kampfgruppen-? ?location? (recent W-A Forum e-stand) <--- ???
***********************************************
Do you have any info on the number of KG men in a "Zug" level unit?
Or also any info on the KG map index letters to KG unit flag type?
<br><center>OldFlagsWanted.com</center><center><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/ddrflgm1.gif></center>

[Kozlov]

Actually, the Hunderschaft flags seem the most common and the least ornate. The Hunderschaft flags all seem to be printed, not embroided like that 206 Zug one my friend sold recently.

Incidently, the Zug is the lowest grouping in the Kampfgruppen, a Zug leader has one thin red rank stripe. Its below Hunderschaft so I am guessing its like Torsten says, a traditional German Zug size, about 12 men? However if thats the case, why have such a huge great big embroided beautiful flag for 12 men, when a 100 men gets a crappy printed one! That 206 Zug flag really was stunningly well put together, a real work of art.

The weird and wonderful Kampfgruppen strike again!

[oldflagswanted]

...about HS &amp; ZUG DDR KG wreath type unit flags....

...the Hunderschaft flags seem the most common and the least ornate. The Hunderschaft flags all seem to be printed, not embroided like that 206 Zug one my friend sold recently...

I have two numbered/named KG Hundredschaft wreath type unit flags in my collection, and both are fully embroidered, not printed! Likewise, with all of those in the known to have existed KG unit flag listing, which shows so far that the "Zug" level KG unit flag is the most common. Please elaborate why you think otherwise?<br><center>OldFlagsWanted.com</center><center><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/ddrflgm1.gif></center>

[Kozlov]

Thats a fairly limited survey so far I'd have to say!

Let me try to explain, if you were to ask people on here about the numbers of something you'd probably find that they had more of the higher ranking stuff than the low - simply because of the attractiveness.

I'm still trying to work out why a "zug" would have a flag anyway, with my assumption above that a zug is only a section of about 12 men....

[torstenbel]

Yes, if the KG are comparable with the Army or other military units, then a Zug should be about 30 men and I am very surprised that they would have had their own flags, but obviously this is proved by the evidence presented here...so can't argue with that... 10-12 men would be the next smaller unit, i.e. a Gruppe in the army...again, no idea if this is the same in the KG, but I would assume that it would be...I had a very brief look through the internet to try and find an exact explanation of the structure within the KG and I could not find one, but surely there must be a definitive list out there somewhere to explain the unit structure...???? Cheers, Torsten (ebay id german.militaria).

Thats a fairly limited survey so far I'd have to say!

Let me try to explain, if you were to ask people on here about the numbers of something you'd probably find that they had more of the higher ranking stuff than the low - simply because of the attractiveness.

I'm still trying to work out why a "zug" would have a flag anyway, with my assumption above that a zug is only a section of about 12 men....

[oldflagswanted]

...about the quality/quantity of KG Wreath Pattern Unit flags...

Thats a fairly limited survey so far... about the numbers of something you'd probably find that they had more of the higher ranking stuff than the low - simply because of the attractiveness. I'm still trying to work out why a "zug" would have a flag anyway...

The embroidered KG wreath pattern unit flag survey data comes from inputs from several years of what has been offered/sold/documented on the collecting market, which does indicate by the limited numbers encountered of same that these flags are indeed rare items, as is the case with all one-of-a-kind military type unit flags world wide, at least in my opinion based on collecting such flags for some 35+ years. Likewise, all of the subject DDR KG wreath pattern numbered/named unit flags that I've seen over the years, no matter what size the unit, have been fully embroidered - all are the same quality! So if you have photos of some screen printed versions, of these specific wreath pattern numbered/named KG unit flags, I would be very interested to view them. As to the why there seems to be more "Zug" level KG unit flags, I suspect that is because there were more small firm/city KG organizations than larger factory or detached non-firm/city special arms KG units, such that the non-Zug level units were far fewer in number as the flag survey is indicating. The KG info map I think is the key to just how many KG units there were in the DDR, if we can figure out just what the letter codes on same mean? And please don't take the tone of any of this wrong - just very interested in the subject of unit flags, worldwide and of all periods.<br><center>OldFlagsWanted.com</center><center><img src=http://members.tripod.com/~oldflagswanted/ddrflgm1.gif></center>