RE: Reproduction "High-end" DDR Medals

[Mike G.]

I have mixed emotions and feelings about this. This individual is in Germany, I believe. I've been following his auctions for several weeks now, and it is apparent he specializes in "High-end" DDR Medals. I've seen numerous different types/kinds offered recently, to include the ones I'm referencing in the link. Please note the Seller makes a point of insuring the potential buyer is aware the item is a replica, and not the real thing.

I suppose from the standpoint of a DDR Re-enactor, this is a dream finally come true. Now they can put together a parade outfit of one of the various DDR Organs, and if they desire to be a General or Admiral, they now can attain copies of the medals these guys would have worn, required of such a re-enactment uniform.

My concern is not with the Seller. My concern is with the idea of selling Replicas, that once sold by the original Seller who is identifying them as such, can subsequently be passed off to the unknowing as the real thing. The reverse of these medals is never shown, and I suspect they are not marked in any way to infer in a permanent manner that they are replicas.

While I've never been one to favor "Big Brother" organizations to excess, I in this case wish there was some such agency that could require and inforce makers of these type medals to mark them on the reverse in a permanent way (Large Raised letters that read "Replica" for example) so that they after being sold, cannot be passed off by someone else as the real deal.

I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts and perceptions on this subject. Please know that everyone is entitled to their respective opinion, and we should all respect that. I believe in "Free Enterprise" and certainly this particular Seller has found a unique "Niche" for which there is an obvious market, because from what I can tell, his stuff is selling like hot-cakes. I just really hate to see it re-appear again for sale as the real deal. I suspect it will.

I'm glad as a high-end medal collector, I've managed to acquire most of what I want before this came to pass. But it is still early in the Collecting Game in so far as East German collecting is concerned, and while something such as this I'm sure we all can agree was inevitable, to appear this quickly enmasse production, is worrisome. Your thoughts?

Link: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZtruckdieler-de

[skip]

Hi Mike,


yep, he´s on German Ebay as well.

I´ve had the chance to hold on of those "earned military pilot medals" before and I can tell you they are very, very good. They are not marked in any way or means. I would´nt have spotted it by just having it in my hands and I only found out because the seller told me.

I´ve held a couple of real ones before but never bought one because IMO the price was to high. As soon as you get in the range of TR stuff for DDR stuff its to much for me.

Skip

[Ralph P]

Hello all, I believe that this is good discussion that ALL forum members need to be involved in on this forum, but I also believe that this discussion should not be limited to high end medals.

My concern comes from what I believe is a bigger issue that we need to be talking about and needs to be included in this thread and that is the high end items outside the medals field. One example I will use is the high end flags that are NOW popping up on the market as originals.

What concerns me more right now over the medal issue (and medals are just as important and need to be discussed too) is that the DDR collector communty has a lack of data to determine what is real and what is not on high end items. Most of us in the community have the books that we can take off the shelf to look up our medals, but when it overall comes to something else...and in general most of us would be hard pressed to find reference books to help a fellow forum member or a friend in need.

We need to assist each other as much a possible since the collector DDR community is still young compared to other collection fields that have been around for many years.

I hope my post did not read like it was all over the place, but I want to make the point that there are items out there that need our attention and I hope that more forum members will step forward and provide there thoughts to this thread.

[Mike G.]

To further the education process, here are two links (Taken from the Communist Bloc Forum) that address some of the imitation, replica and fake items that now abound out there. The first link is to a thread that primarily addresses insignia, decorations and medals. The second is specific to the issue of reproduction peaked hats. The link actually takes you to another Forum of another DDR Internet Site with similar interests.

Link: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=NVA+Medals

Link: http://www.gunboards.com/militaria/t...?TOPIC_ID=2863

[MH184]

Skippy,

Is there any way you can get any pic's of the fake medals (or even Nic ) any of them ?

Remember a while back you told me about Border Guard Medal fakes that are about.

Kr

Marcus

[Mike G.]

Hi Marcus,

I think the Border Guard medals that are being faked are of the Russian Border Guard medal, and not any of the East German Grenztruppen medals.

[skip]

In fact the first type of Border Guard Medal of the DDR (not the one with the soldier on it, just inscription) has already been faked. Not very well, in fact I imagine its just a casting of the original. Also faked is the medal for TRue Service in the KVP. Same here, a casting of the original.

Only way to tell these is the lack of detail in the wreaths, the metal they are made of is quiet convincing.

Skip

[Ralph P]

Hey Skip VERY good information, will for sure keep my eyes open on these medals.

[Mike G.]

Skip and Marcus,

I was not aware of "Sand Cast" fakes of these two medals. Thanks for the heads up. If you should come across some pics of the fakes for these two medals, I would be greatly appreciative, as I'm sure would many of the other Forum members, if you would post them. I'm sure there are "Medal" collectors who are at some point in time, wanting to add these two medals to their collecting inventory, and this of course would be very useful information.

Now that I know about this, I too will keep my eye open for an example of one of these reproduction types, and if I come across one, I'll be sure to post it for information purposes. I would really hate to see someone get burned on one of these. While they are not as costly as some high-end medals, they ain't cheap.

[MH184]

Arrhh......I still have to send you that e mail Mike......I've some limited info and details of the genuine types of the BG medal; I'll send that too.

I'm not even first gear this year yet

Marcus

[Mike G.]

As Popeye the Sailorman would say, "Well blow me away" !!!

A quick search of German Ebay by Medal Name revealed Vorbildlichen Grenzdienst (1st Type) of highly questionable authenticity. I'm stunned.

The very first thing that caught my attention was the very cheap "Buy Now" price (EURO 65.00). These medals, as Skip well knows, go for considerably more. Given that the Seller is experienced, and auctions his medals for a much higher price, one would have to guess he is aware of the questionable authenticity of the medal, even if he isn't posting his suspicions.

Of interest is that both the ribbon from which the medal is hanging, and the individual ribbon that would be worn on the Dienst Uniform, appear authentic, and probably are. They are displayed in a box to which they are not original, as can be seen from the poor fit. The box obviously was originally for some other medal.

The medal, as Skip pointed out, is not very well defined. Particularly the wreath, but even more so, the binder at the base of the medal that holds the wreath together. It is poorly cast. The reverse of the medal is serial number stamped, as were the real ones.

What I'd like to point out to prospective buyers of these type medals is one other "Key" identifier point not yet covered. It is the principle difference between the originals (And pertains to all DDR Medals) and Sand Cast reproductions. Note if you will, the "Eye" or medal ring to which the ribbon is attached to the medal. On the real ones, this is a separate wire that is affixed to the medal. Often, you will even see a break or split at the base (Meaning it does not complete a full circle). On the Sand Cast reproductions, this ring is an actual part of the medal. The one about which I'm addressing in this post is an example. The photo is not real clear, but clear enough one can see that the ring is part of the medal. "This cannot be" .

I forgot to add:
The "Patina" of this medal also is questionable. This particular example has a very high luster to it. These medals have a very high Bronze content to them, and as all know, over time, medals with a high contect of bronze tend to darken heavily, and even sometimes develop a greenish or bluish hue. Serious medal dealers are also aware of this, and look upon it as a good thing. They would not clean it up. They would leave the patina as is - the older the better. Again, there is one more nail in the coffin.

So there you have it. As Skip was so good to point out, these, and the KVP medals are being reproduced.

German Ebay Example:

[Ralph P]

Hey Mike good post and good source to go to and find these types medals for us to examine and educate...thanks. I hope either your picture or another forum member can get a close up of the medal in question and post it to the thread.

As Popeye the Sailorman would say, "Well blow me away" !!!

A quick search of German Ebay by Medal Name revealed Vorbildlichen Grenzdienst (1st Type) of highly questionable authenticity. I'm stunned.

The very first thing that caught my attention was the very cheap "Buy Now" price (EURO 65.00). These medals, as Skip well knows, go for considerably more. Given that the Seller is experienced, and auctions his medals for a much higher price, one would have to guess he is aware of the questionable authenticity of the medal, even if he isn't posting his suspicions.

Of interest is that both the ribbon from which the medal is hanging, and the individual ribbon that would be worn on the Dienst Uniform, appear authentic, and probably are. They are displayed in a box to which they are not original, as can be seen from the poor fit. The box obviously was originally for some other medal.

The medal, as Skip pointed out, is not very well defined. Particularly the wreath, but even more so, the binder at the base of the medal that holds the wreath together. It is poorly cast. The reverse of the medal is serial number stamped, as were the real ones.

What I'd like to point out to prospective buyers of these type medals is one other "Key" identifier point not yet covered. It is the principle difference between the originals (And pertains to all DDR Medals) and Sand Cast reproductions. Note if you will, the "Eye" or medal ring to which the ribbon is attached to the medal. On the real ones, this is a separate wire that is affixed to the medal. Often, you will even see a break or split at the base (Meaning it does not complete a full circle). On the Sand Cast reproductions, this ring is an actual part of the medal. The one about which I'm addressing in this post is an example. The photo is not real clear, but clear enough one can see that the ring is part of the medal. "This cannot be" .

I forgot to add:
The "Patina" of this medal also is questionable. This particular example has a very high luster to it. These medals have a very high Bronze content to them, and as all know, over time, medals with a high contect of bronze tend to darken heavily, and even sometimes develop a greenish or bluish hue. Serious medal dealers are also aware of this, and look upon it as a good thing. They would not clean it up. They would leave the patina as is - the older the better. Again, there is one more nail in the coffin.

So there you have it. As Skip was so good to point out, these, and the KVP medals are being reproduced.

German Ebay Example:

[Gordon Craig]

Michael,


Nice post on the medal copies. I am not surprised that these are being copied as almost all the high end medals are appearing on ebady.de in just too large a number for all of them to be autnetic. Your comment about marking the medals is good but doesn't always seem to warn the buyer. There were a number of Third Reich awards, with diamonds, created a few years ago which were excellent copies but had the word "repro" on the back in large enough letter to be clearly visible to the naked eye. I watched a number of auctions where these pieces went for very high prices. I never could figure out why. I think in the future, high end awards purchased through ebay.de would be a poor choice. Since the EU passed laws protecting buyers against fraud (just recently) you will notice that all ebay.de buyers state that what you buy is what you get and there are no return privileges. So it is really "buyer beware" on ebay.de these days.

If you've visited the DDR Forum lately you'll see that I got stung with the purchase of a rare GST woman's winter hat but I bought it from a dealer, not through an auction, and I've returned it. DDR collectors are now entering the same arena as Third Reich collectors in that we are going to be forced to pay higher prices through dealers to get a return privilege. In the end it pays off.
My KMO is a perfect example of that.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Thälmannpionier]

Hello Genossen

I have purchased my first reproduction Badge today on purpose,to actually holding it in my hands and to get an idea of how it is made and to spot the differences.

First I have to say,it's easely to see that it is fake for a Medal Collector BUT if this medal would be professional altered..I wouldn't be so sure anymore ok,in some cases it wouldn't work,because of the material the medal is made of.

Rightnow,the Medal looks like it comes fresh out the Factory,also with a Lack of Detail..but as I said,if it would look aged..we are in danger!

Often,I have read that the most cast repros doesn't have the loop/ring attached to the Medal like you'll see it on genuine DDR Medals. But this one got it!! (see pictures)

I have spotted a difference on the Interimspange(ribbon). If you look closely,you can see that the fake ribbon has a different stitching pattern,than the genuine Ribbons. I have looked through all my Medals and they all have the same stitching pattern.Even my KVP Medal from the 50`s
So,that would be a difference to spot a fake from a real.But how easy is it just to change the Fake Ribbon with a real Ribbon(if you just owned the real Ribbon before)
The back of the Ribbons look just the same .(they probably using real DDR Needle Attachments) but again,as far as i know,on early DDR Medals,you will always find a kind of needle security hook.

Friends,we have to be very carefull in the future,with purchasing High End awards,because this is just the Tip of the Iceberg and for our Luck until now,there is just that one Dealer who sells Repros and this Seller points out that his Stuff is not real.But as I already mentioned in another Thread,what if someone is selling a Lot of Medals and just puts one altered Fake between them Unfortunatly,DDR Awards are not of the same quality like WWII Awards and the Fakers getting better and better.just a matter of Time and we are probably in real Danger!So,this topic should be discussed over and over again to get the knowledge and to protect ourselves from Fakes.

All the best
Andreas


Reproduction Medal

[Thälmannpionier]

fake medal