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**Dag** · 08-18-2004, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by tony james

hi dag
interesting to hear that the piping was colored in on the hats in 1986.do
you know how long the colored piped hats were worn after the 1961 change to
all white piping on hats? the panzer visor pictured has no signs of ever having a
bullseye kockade on it but the wreath is original to the hat indicating that perhaps they were still being issued after the new 1961 regulations.

tony

Tony,

For clarification: The guys who coloured the white piping to pink had to buy knew hats (on their own expenses) and also had to replace the colllar boards as this was against! the regulation. The coloured piping on uniforms was phased out in the early 60ies. However, as you just can't throw stuff away I assume that there was a transition period so it was possible to use up old stock. But this is more an educated guess as I'm not an expert on either uniforms are the NVA regulations of this era.

I hope that helps a bit.

Dag

**tony james** · 08-19-2004, 06:49 PM

hi dag
thanks for the info.one more question if you don't mind:what shooting cord/ marksmanship lanyard did the panzer soldaten wear between 1962 to 1986?from the facts that i have gathered the first cord with the T34 was discontinued after 1961 and it was not until 1986 that another cord was issued
(T72?) .did every branch of service wear the same infantry lanyard/cord?and
what was the sleeve patch awarded for ?
thanks for your time and replys.

tony

**Dag** · 08-22-2004, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by tony james

hi dag
thanks for the info.one more question if you don't mind:what shooting cord/ marksmanship lanyard did the panzer soldaten wear between 1962 to 1986?from the facts that i have gathered the first cord with the T34 was discontinued after 1961 and it was not until 1986 that another cord was issued
(T72?) .did every branch of service wear the same infantry lanyard/cord?and
what was the sleeve patch awarded for ?
thanks for your time and replys.

tony

Hi Tony,

Please ask questions. As I gather first hand information is what many of you are after, so please keep them coming. However, my knowledge is limited but I certainly try my best to get answer if I don't know.

As I suggested, every branch actually wore the same lanyard/cord with the exception that the navy issue was blue/gold.

The sleeve patch, worn on the left, was not issued for an achievement but to indicate the branch you actually served in. For example, if you were in a motorised infantry regiment, as a tank crew you would wear a tank. This was doen because you had to wera the white shoulderboards for an infantry unit(as the parent unit). But I know this only for the time from 83 onwards!! The same would apply to specialist companies in a tank regiment (signals, engineers, reconnoisance would wear the appropriate branch patch but pink shoulderboards as the parent unit was a tank regiment.

I hope that answers your question.

Dag

**Mike G.** · 08-22-2004, 02:35 PM

Dag,

This is very interesting and informative. For further clarification, to insure that this is fully understood. Are you saying that a Tanker for example, in a Tank regiment, already wearing "Pink" shoulder boards, then would not wear the service branch identification patch, because it was understood that he was a Tanker - self explanatory so to speak. But if assigned to a Tank Unit attached to a Mechanized Infantry (Motor Rifle) Regiment for example, the Tanker, now required to wear white shoulder boards, would then wear the service branch identification patch, to identify him as a Tanker?

That would go a long way toward explaining why in photographs of Tankers in Tank Units, the service patch is never seen being worn. It would also explain about the other units as well.

So, is this correct?

Thanks in advance for clarification relevant this issue.

**Dag** · 08-22-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Panzer Fuehrer

Dag,

This is very interesting and informative. For further clarification, to insure that this is fully understood. Are you saying that a Tanker for example, in a Tank regiment, already wearing "Pink" shoulder boards, then would not wear the service branch identification patch, because it was understood that he was a Tanker - self explanatory so to speak. But if assigned to a Tank Unit attached to a Mechanized Infantry (Motor Rifle) Regiment for example, the Tanker, now required to wear white shoulder boards, would then wear the service branch identification patch, to identify him as a Tanker?

That would go a long way toward explaining why in photographs of Tankers in Tank Units, the service patch is never seen being worn. It would also explain about the other units as well.

So, is this correct?

Thanks in advance for clarification relevant this issue.

Yes, that summarizes it nicely. But it might be interesting to note that it was not enforced to wear the patch! I remember that some of our reconnoisance guys wore it but I did never see any of the engineers(Pioniere) wearing it. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear earlier, especially since you asked me for clarification before. Of course, that is only applicable from 1983 to 1989 (when I was serving with guys who started 83). And I don't know how other units handled it.

Dag

**Mike G.** · 08-22-2004, 04:16 PM

Thanks Dag,

You cannot know how much this information is appreciated. For quite some time, I and many others, have been scratching our heads trying to understand and comprehend the purpose of, and use for the branch service patch worn on the Tunic Sleeve. There is nothing in writing that we have been able to find that clearly defines the use of this patch. Photographs from early on, to late also failed to adequately address questions we had concerning wear of this item. It seems to have been used very infrequently. Now we have a better understanding of why. We Americans have been trying to equate the use of this patch with the Unit to which the Tunic is relevant. It never occurred to me that it was to identify a branch of service that has been attached to a different and much larger unit; ie - signals attached to a mechanized Infantry Unit. You have at least clarified some of the confusion for us relevant the NVA "Open Collar" era. I'm sure the regulations governing the wear of it during the "Dark Collar" era was similar.

I have a Dark Collar Engineer Parade Tunic with an Engineer Branch Service Patch on the sleeve. I have always been suspicious about the presence of this patch and thought perhaps it really didn't belong. Now I'm leaning even more toward the belief that it should not be on the Tunic. The shoulder boards and collar insignia already clearly identify the Tunic as Engineer, hence there is no need for the sleeve patch to further identify the owner of the Tunic as a member of an NVA Engineer Unit.

**Dag** · 08-23-2004, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Panzer Fuehrer

Thanks Dag,

I have a Dark Collar Engineer Parade Tunic with an Engineer Branch Service Patch on the sleeve. I have always been suspicious about the presence of this patch and thought perhaps it really didn't belong. Now I'm leaning even more toward the belief that it should not be on the Tunic. The shoulder boards and collar insignia already clearly identify the Tunic as Engineer, hence there is no need for the sleeve patch to further identify the owner of the Tunic as a member of an NVA Engineer Unit.

Hi Michael,

That might actually be correct. I will see if I can get my hands on some early regulations to find out. I don't know how strictly it was regulated before the new uniforms were introduced. Maybe the regulations to wear the patches were changed at the same time? I'll see what I can find out.

Dag

**Mike G.** · 08-23-2004, 01:52 PM

Hi Dag,

Thanks for your interest regarding the correct wear of decorations and insignia on the NVA Tunics - both old and new. I must confess, that of all the Dark Collar Tunics I have, this one particular Engineer Tunic is the only one that gives me cause to pause and wonder. I hope the presence of the branch patch on the sleeve is correct, but I really don't know. Photos from that era/time suggest that even if correct, soldiers apparently more often chose not to wear it, than did. Perhaps it was one of those regs that just wasn't enforced.

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