Early DDR Dagger Question?

[SCHUPO]

Gents,

I picked up an early DDR Ehrendolch at SOS and now I have a couple of questions. Does anyone have/know a serial number range that would date these daggers? The dagger that I picked up is serial #1249 which should put it in the initial 1960s production from what I understand. It has the early stamped logo within a triangle on the blade ricasso. Anyone know this maker by chance? It also came with a set of thee hole hangers with very crisp cast fittings. Have we finally decided that these three hole hangers are only on the early ones or not?

Thanks in advance.

[eastgermansks]

SHUPO,

I believe you are correct in you assumption. Three hole hangars are characteristic of early daggers. Congrats on the purchase!

-Luke

[Knuckles930]

I have two daggers my self. One later type the other an early one. The early one is numbered
65191 and came with a green older type box, same number. As you noted the hanger is
more crisp and has three holes.

This is the mark on my older blade:

[SCHUPO]

Luke,

Thanks for the conformation on what I was thinking. I know that we discussed this hanger issue awhile back but I could not remember a conclusion. I was very pleased to find a four digit dagger at the show and snapped it up.

Knuckles,

Thanks for the photograph of your marking. This is the one I was talking about on my dagger. It reminds me of the VEB Perfekt logo but I do not know if they made daggers. Do we know if this is their logo?

My dagger has the eary translucent grip rather than the solid color plastic normally seen. I don't know if this was an early grip or a special grip material or just a variation. Your dagger grip seems to be the solid cream color rather than the variegated color on mine. Am I seeing it correctly on my monitor?

[Knuckles930]

Both my daggers have a solid colour. The one above has the more yellow/white
colour. The later one has a much more whiter colour.

If you like I can post some pictures I made some time ago. They compare both
versions.

[SCHUPO]

That would be great.

[Knuckles930]

Here are the pictures of the two daggers I have. The later one doesn't have a
makers mark. Possibly a post unification assembly.

The top one, with the more yellow grip is the older one. It's made much
more crisp and solid. It does show some wear though.

Top one # 65191
Bottom one # 81380

[Knuckles930]

The later has a slightly longer blade.







The different patterns on the top of the grip.

[Knuckles930]

And most notable, the difference in hangers. The right or bottom one
being the older type. Note the difference in length and the 3 holes vs
1 hole. Also the older one is again more crisp.











I took these photos some while ago, so if you like some additional ones, let me know.

[Ralph P]

Hello all - Here is a photo of SCHUPO's latest buy...his new dagger...

[SCHUPO]

Knuckles,

Thanks for the comparison photos. Very informative when one can see the two daggers side by side.

My dagger is made just like yours with the exception of the translucent grip. That makes sense since they are by the same maker. I notice that the scabbard catch on the blade of mine is shorter than the slot in the blade just like your early dagger vs your late dagger. The pebbling on my pommel is better done exactly like that on your early dagger. Finally, my 3 hole hangers are made just like yours and I notice that the long strap has a longer length of fabric below the buckle to make the overall length correct. The buckle is set lower on the 1 hole straps to make the length correct on those hangers. I think the earlier hangers were made a bit longer overall because they were not worn from an outside belt but were worn from beneath the tunic and had to hang down below the hem from the inside. Later daggers were worn from the outside brocade belt and could be shorter in length.

[Gordon Craig]

George,

There was only one manufacturer of these daggers. Produktionsgenossenschaft des Handwerks (PGH) der Messerschmiede
Mühlhausen in Thüringen. There were some name changes to the firm over the years of the production of the dagger but that is not germain here as the same makers mark was used throughout the production of the daggers. The three towers in the makers mark are for a well known landmark church in Mühlhausen. Depending on which reference you believe there were between 60 and 80 sub contractors that made parts for the daggers assembled by PGH.
The makers mark does not necessarily mean that the dagger was an early made one. The makers mark seems to have been applied sporadically and we have never been able to tie a specific time frame to any daggers that correlates the serial numbers and the makers mark. The darker handled ones are normally associated with the early production daggers as are the three hole hangers. Hangers are normally all the same length regardless of the number of holes. One of the hangers that I have in my collection is shorter than the others but I believe this was done after production. Dagger hangers can be divided into basically three groups although there are some hangers that deviate from the three basic categories. I have made up these categories from hangers in my collection and through research.
The earliest ones have a three hole hangers; later isssued ones have only a single hole; the first two types have silver metal finishes the third type has silver painted metal fittings.

Regards,

Gordon

[SCHUPO]

Gordon,

Thanks for the information! It seems that my dagger is very early because of the four digit serial number. Keubke & Kunz say the dagger was developed and deployed from the Fall of 1960 for wear at the 1 Mai 1961 parade in Berlin. It was authorized for wear on 29 April 1961. I don't know how many officers there were on that date but I suspect that dagger #1249 would have been in that initial production run. Does that make sense?

The K & K book shows several daggers including a General/Admiral dagger on page 229 that has the translucent grip. If PGH used many different suppliers, this type of grip could simply be a manufacturer variation depending upon who their part sub-contractor was at the time and may mean nothing more than that.

[Gordon Craig]

George,

There is no way of knowing if your dagger was among the first of those worn. As I said earlier, we have not been able to date daggers through the serial numbers. Since daggers were sold to officers at this time, and not presented to them upon graduation, who knows when it was first worn? I have one dagger in my collection that is numbered 5363 that came with a bill of sale dated 18.10.65.
As for the colour of the grip, that is entire correct. There is really no way of knowing what batch of grips were used at any time. What ever was supplied to those assembling the daggers would be what they used. That is why I said "The darker handled ones are normally associated with the early production daggers ". I could not make a more definite statement than that.

Regards,

Gordon