Announcement

**Mike G.** · 05-03-2010, 07:25 AM

I've commented on several occasions that the fact sleeve, cuff bar and cuff band insignia is not sewn through the liner, means absolutely nothing to me. A good tailor can make quick work of it and for small pittance in cost.

I acquired this handsome dark collar Haupfeldwebel tunic from a very reliable American Dealer. Unfortunately, one look after carefully extricating it from its wrapping material, and I knew I now had acquired some very expensive gray cloth.

This tunic is dated First Quarter 1979. The walking out trousers are dated Third Quarter 1974.

Interesting that the tunic is dated 79 and the use of color-piped insignia coincidentally ended in 79, which this uniform makes use of.

Why on this little green earth one is supposed to believe an NCO of this rank would continue to wear a uniform constructed of wool tests the imagination of even the most open minded collector. What would this soldier wear for a visor hat? He would of course be authorized the officer headgear insignia, but never on a Wool Visor Hat. The whole setup is ludicrous.

And everything is correctly sewn. So as I've stated before; having collectors look to see if something is sewn thru the liner is poppycock. I've got uniforms where the insignia is sewn thru the liner and they are genuine. This one is not.

Here are photos.

Tunic, collar and shoulder board insignia.

Attached Files

**Mike G.** · 05-03-2010, 07:28 AM

Cuff bars, Warrant Officer cuff band, and service and engineer sleeve insignia:

Attached Files

**Mike G.** · 05-03-2010, 07:31 AM

Sleeves rolled up. No sewing thru the liner and the liner seems appear flawless and show no signs of having been opened and re-sewn closed.

Attached Files

**Mike G.** · 05-03-2010, 07:33 AM

Underside of collar:

Attached Files

**Mike G.** · 05-03-2010, 07:35 AM

And the ubiquitous " 1F " date:

Attached Files

DSC_10.jpg (103.3 KB, 149 views)

**Mike G.** · 05-03-2010, 07:37 AM

The appearance of this uniform has pretty much put a halt on my continued collecting of DDR / NVA military memorabilia.

I still travel to Germany every other year, and if there is going to be any new addition of memorabilia to my collection, that is the only manner going forward by which it will be obtained. If I can't touch and smell it before I buy it, it ain't going to my home.

**iannima** · 05-03-2010, 08:46 AM

Michael, I am sorry about your disappointing purchase

... I hope the financial damage was not too severe

.
I obviously agree that it is a post DDR incorrectly put-together tunic. Did you not see photographs of it beforehand?
However, much as the insignia might be incorrect (or partially incorrect), the base tunic is nonetheless a GENUINE example of a 1979 produced dark collar tunic like the one that David_H was showing earlier.

**Collectinsteve** · 05-03-2010, 12:38 PM

I can't comment on the specifics of this particular uniform because I'm not that knowledgeable about this type (I have a couple, though). However, I think it is useful to note four truisms I've found over many years of collecting things from 60 years worth of issued kit from probably 100 countries:

1. There is usually a 1-2 year production overlap between "old" and "new" styles of uniforms. Usually it's to allow the contractors to use up old production stock, but it can also be simply that it takes a while for new production to get ramped up. For example, Bundeswehr "moleskin" field uniforms were produced until 1991 even though Flecktarn production started in 1990.

2. During these times of production overlaps sometimes uniforms that should never have been produced are. Manufacturing mistakes, sly contractors trying to "get away" with something, shortages of correct materials and delivery dates looming, etc. Who really knows, but the fact remains that if you collect in a particular area long enough you will likely get a look at a genuine uniform that doesn't look the way it should.

3. NCOs, and to a lesser extent Officers, tend to be real stubborn about retaining old bits of kit. The degree this is tolerated is influenced by the general state of the transition. The faster the transition goes, the smaller the period of tolerance for breaking regulations. This goes double for "elite" units that want to retain ties to their past. Belgian Para/Commandos in 1990s wearing items that were only produced in 1956 come to mind

4. Soldiers aren't NEARLY as picky as collectors when it comes to the "right thing". I've seen plenty of incorrect badging on genuinely badged uniforms, I've seen plenty of correct badging on uniforms assembled after service. And of course there are tons of pictures out there that are confusing as Hell to us collectors because they show things which theoretically shouldn't exist, but do.

Here's a single example that kinda ties all of these things together. Bundeswehr Splinter camouflage was officially dropped in 1959 a full two years after production ceased (1957). Yet you can find pictures dated as late as 1964 with it still in use for entire units, contrary to official regulations. I also have Splinter camo items that other BW collectors have never seen before, nor can any of us find pictures of some of them. Yet they do exist. Lastly, I have a picture of a BW Panzergrenadier wearing a Splinter camo jacket in the 1990s! How he got away with that, I have no idea, but there he is smiling for the camera in a RIADS magazine. None of these things "make sense" to us collectors, but they did happen and are actually more the norm than the exception in my experience.

So from what I see of Michael's tunic I don't see any problem with it unless the badging itself is incorrect. I don't know enough about the badging to know anything beyond that, but I just thought it might be helpful to remind us collectors that the subjects we study don't like to fit into neat categories

Steve

**iannima** · 05-03-2010, 01:51 PM

Sorry Steve, all true but not applicable to this tunic for two reasons:

Professional NCOs (double chevron) started wearing officer-quality uniforms (i.e. not this one) in 1965. 14 years of transition are too many even if we imagined the crustiest of old fashioned sergeants ...
Dark collar uniforms ceased to be the norm and started being phased out in 1974 with officers and professional NCOs being the first to change over, particularly on parade tunics, such as this one purports to be. It is now down to 5 years of transition, but still too many...

What you are saying is however correct, that production does not switch overnight. Its carrying on for a couple of years -as you say- would not surprise anybody, but the point made by David_H's tunic and confirmed by Michael's (as the base tunic is genuine) is that in the DDR the transition carried on for another five years at least.
I keep reminding people that we are always talking about production in a socialist command economy where meeting the LETTER of the plan was all that mattered.

**Collectinsteve** · 05-03-2010, 05:44 PM

heh... yeah, like I said the details are important here and I certainly don't know them. Oh well, I was hoping for Michael's sake that the badging wasn't someone "tarting up" a jacket. It's such an interesting looking one!

I was also going to mention that "planned economies" tend to have pretty sloppy production standards. The question that seemed to be more important was "did you meet your quota, comrade?" and not "did you meet your quota according to current specifications, comrade?". And of course some contraband Western goods slipped in along with the production report probably helped too

Steve

**Collectinsteve** · 05-03-2010, 05:55 PM

BTW, this is a perfect example why I only dabble in DDR stuff. I don't have any interest in fakes or paying good money for things I could assemble myself for 1/2 the price. But because of the vast array of fakes the amount of effort it would take for me to learn how to avoid the fakes is in excess of my interest. I'm primarily a camouflage uniform collector so my DDR knowledge is mostly limited to that narrow topic.

Still, I can't help myself... I do like the non-camo uniforms and kit despite the pitfalls of collecting it.

Steve

**Mike G.** · 05-04-2010, 07:59 AM

Matteo,

You asked didn't I see the pictures?
Answer: I've been at this now for a very long time. The pictures were of such quality that the Tunic appeared to be produced of Dederon / gaberdine officer grade material, as it should be for a "Der Spiess". And the seller did not annotate the production year ..... only that the Tunic was Dark Collar. As soon as I saw it in the "Flesh & Blood" I immediately knew it was wrong, as it was constructed of wool.

As Matteo pointed out ..... the Tunic in and of itself is genuine. I doubt it would ever have been worn. After production in 1979, it would probably have been shelved and there it would have remained until discovered after the fall of East Germany.

There certainly would not have been cause for a Hauptfeldwebel in 1979 to wear a dark collar tunic upgraded to "Der Spiess" characteristics. He would have acquired an Open Collar Tunic for this purpose. And the Open Collar Tunic would have been constructed of Dederon / gabardine officer grade material.

Several collectors have commented that perhaps it belonged to a "Crusty" old NVA Sergeant who was stubborn and didn't want conform to the knew open collar regulations. This is an example of collectors who don't want to face and accept the obvious, even when it hits them square between the eyes like a sledge hammer.

Firstly, it is dated 1979. This already is wrong. That it was produced at all is a testimony to the simplistic production quota of the DDR and all that is wrong about that type of Socialist mentality. It was produced. But that is where the story should have ended.

There is no way it would have been issued, and certainly it would never have been upgraded to its current "Der Spiess" status.

There is no way for the uniform as a "Wooly" to be able to conform to the "Der Spiess" uniform rule. Think about it. A "Der Spiess" tunic is worn with white shirt, brown belt and an officer insignia on the visor cap. For the white shirt and brown belt to be worn the Tunic would have to be of Dederon / Gabardine material. And for the officer visor cap insignia to be worn, the visor cap also would have to be of Dederon / Gabardine material.

There is no acceptable plausible explanation by which this Tunic can be explained away.

My primary reason for posting it was to exemplify that indeed, it is possible to create a uniform that passes the smell test, but is still after all is said and done, a post DDR / NVA put-together uniform. This Tunic when examined has all the features and characteristics of a factory made tunic. And yet, it is what it is - a put-together uniform.

Like I said ...... I now own some very expensive gray cloth.

**Mike G.** · 05-04-2010, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Michael D. Gallagher View Post

And the ubiquitous " 1F " date:

Here is something interesting I did not pick up on first time round.
The stamp inside this Tunic indicates it is constructed of Dederon (Gabardine). It is of course constructed of wool.

I've no clue what is going on with this uniform, outside of the fact it just keeps getting more and more weird.

Attached Files

DSC_10.jpg (103.3 KB, 149 views)

**iannima** · 05-04-2010, 11:14 AM

Sorry Michael, I always understood the Dederonhaltig to be applicable to the lining only and that is indeed Dederon. I think earlier ones were Perlon -something...

**Collectinsteve** · 05-04-2010, 03:55 PM

Good info, even if I'm learning it at the expense of Michael's bank account. Sorry to hear you got duped. Happens to the best of us. As the owner of several expensive bits of cloth myself, I feel your pain.

The point of my long winded initial response is that I've seen almost as many collectors out there say "that unusual thing isn't real because it doesn't fit what I read in a book" as I see say "since nobody can identify this it must be from the Übergoobertrupen, staffed by incarcerated insane personnel, which existed only for 1 day as an April Fool's Day joke before all the members were summarily executed".

I misread Michael's initial concerns as being more abut the date than about than other definite signs of fraud.

Getting back on topic, I have an unbadged closed gray collar tunic dated "II L" with white piping along the cuffs. That date code is 1987, yes? Can someone tell me what the story is with this thing before I do anything to it?

Steve

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