John ,in order to check if this group is time-coherent or not, could you measure the diameters of true diente medals and verdienstmedaille? DO they measure 34,7 or 35mm? It is a good tool to ensure if it is not a put-up group and to have a good idea of the career progression of the guy who received these medals... many thanks! sebastien
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Hi,
in my opinion all these medals for "Treue Dienste" were produced past 1986, diameter 35 mm.
I think it would be the same for the "Verdienstmedaillen", not awarded medals.
Regards
UweComment
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if you're thinking too of the nickel-palting of these medals, yes it worries me a bit (nickel plating is typical of the late production medals)...Originally posted by speedytop View PostComment
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I think we are forgetting something here.
There was a requirement that as medals were upgraded the old ones were supposed to be exchanged for the new versions.
I know this was not religiously adhered to, or we would not be able to acquire some of the really nice older medals groupings many of us have. However, some did adhere to the policy.
I have a large grouping to one soldier, with certificates and even military university graduation certificates with photos of this person receiving his diploma certificate documents. So I know everything is there. But some of the medals have been exchanged for newer issued medals. So I know some military members did in fact adhere to the regulation.
Just something to think about.Michael D. GALLAGHER
M60-A2 Tank Commander Cold War proverb: “You can accomplish more with a kind word and a ‘Shillelagh’ than you can with just a kind word.”Comment
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hello Michael, thanks for this information. I didn't knew this rule, and I would be happy to know the details or its reference. I already discovered in Ralph's excellent book the discretionnary possibility for an awardee to replace his lost awards. But your information is an annoying fact. It raises two problems:
-first we don't know the proportions of recipient who replaced their awards following this rule;
-secondly it deprives us of any possibility to establish a semblance of authenticity for DDR medals groupings...
The problem about this MfS/MVR grouping is that it doesn't have any documents to establish a start of authenticity, unlike your grouping. I do have too a soldier grouping with complete documentation and problem of time coherence between docs and medals variation (and I'm worried about that).
John can say soviet collecting drove me paranoid, and he'd be certainly right. I don't like at all proving an object is faked; I prefer learning a new fact I didn't knew.
I carrefully monitor ebay and german auction houses like Carsten Zeige since 2000, and I always saw medals groupings with old medals brands, i.e. medals variations in complete relation with documents datation.
I can't pretend to have all clues, so I'd be happy to have keen german phalerists opinions.Last edited by seb16trs; 10-16-2008, 05:51 PM.Comment
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Hello Sebastien - Thanks for your comments and a reminder that I should have also mentioned in my earlier post of the letter in figure 135 and write up at the top of page 141. Thanks...
I will say that the picture in post 24 of this thread is a good example that senior MfS officers wore a three or four medal row. As for the six medal row as shown in figure 129, at some point the medal rows beyond four were phased out.
As for your two points in your post, the letter in my book for sure makes life of collecting groupings more difficult. But I will say that the medals from the groupings I own in my collection have been overall original to the time period with the documents when they were awarded.Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did. Quote - Sophie Scholl - White Rose resistance groupComment
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Hello Michael,never heard off it.Where can I find these regulations??.
[QUOTE=Michael D. Gallagher;2887488]I think we are forgetting something here.
There was a requirement that as medals were upgraded the old ones were supposed to be exchanged for the new versions.Comment
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It was addressed somewhere on this forum in a previous discussion by another forum member.
But all one has to do is look at photographs of high ranking officers throughout their career progression to see it.
Orders and decorations like the following were changed out for newer types when they became available. And you can see this on photos of Senior Officers.
Order: Banner der Arbeit. Originally issued with no number. Changed out for medals numbered 1 through 3.
Order: Held der DDR. Originally issued with no diamonds. Changed out for a medal with diamonds.
Order: Ehrentitel Verdienter Angehoeriger der Nationalen Volksarmee.
Changed out from a very nice gold in color medal similar in design to the 30 year NVA anniversary medal, to a very ugly reath with bow-tie medal.
Order: Medaille Ehrenzeichen der Deutsshen Volkspolizei. Originally just a medal. Changed out several times and eventually changed to a medal suspended from a five sided ribbon.
These are just a few examples.
These medals when originally first issued to Senior Generals and Admirals were of the first issue type. As their careers progressed and the medals changed, they were traded out for the newer medals, even when they were not as nice looking. The medals they initially were awarded and the medals they ended their respective careers with, were not one and the same, in all cases.
There is even a photo of Hoffmann wearing plastic ribbons on a field uniform. These certainly were not the ribbons he was originally issued. Need I say more?
All you have to do is look at photos that show their career progression to see it.
I'm not saying it was done by all or that it was common. I'm only saying it was done by some.
The one thing I have come to understand about DDR Orders and Medals is that there is nothing to understand.
Because they were for the most part not serial numbered and there is no archived record on file that can today be researched, no one can say anything about any medal grouping for sure. It is not possible. You can scratch your head, pull out your hair, and even do cheata flips all day long, and it is not going to change the fact that when it comes to DDR Orders and Medals, the documentation for how, when and where the awards were received, worn and displayed sucks. To make matters worse, you can look at photos of Generals Hoffmann and Kessler and see variations in different pictures of order of precedence for different medals. They didn't even wear them in the same order all the time. Photos prove this.
It is the most confusing element of DDR collecting there possibly can be.
Since I am not a "Connoisseur" collector, but am instead a "War Trophy" collector, I personally don't let it bother me. But I would imagine for someone that is a die hard medals collector, this must drive them absolutely nuts.
Michael D. GALLAGHER
M60-A2 Tank Commander Cold War proverb: “You can accomplish more with a kind word and a ‘Shillelagh’ than you can with just a kind word.”Comment
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Hello Michael,I think thats another question.They changed it for new ones because the medal got a complete different new look.
But why change a treue dienste gold from 1970 with a newer one from 1980?
There are no differences.
Does any former nva member knows??
[QUOTE=Michael D. Gallagher;2888962]It was addressed somewhere on this forum in a previous discussion by another forum member.
But all one has to do is look at photographs of high ranking officers throughout their career progression to see it.
Orders and decorations like the following were changed out for newer types when they became available. And you can see this on photos of Senior Officers.
Order: Banner der Arbeit. Originally issued with no number. Changed out for medals numbered 1 through 3.
Order: Held der DDR. Originally issued with no diamonds. Changed out for a medal with diamonds.
Order: Ehrentitel Verdienter Angehoeriger der Nationalen Volksarmee.
Changed out from a very nice gold in color medal similar in design to the 30 year NVA anniversary medal, to a very ugly reath with bow-tie medal.
Order: Medaille Ehrenzeichen der Deutsshen Volkspolizei. Originally just a medal. Changed out several times and eventually changed to a medal suspended from a five sided ribbon.
These are just a few examples.Comment
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this is the core of the problem... for all of us who try to get a correct group.Originally posted by Stefas View Post
I don't know how to traduce this french sentence in a nice english, but it says: "when in doubt I decline"... So I prefer avoid groups without a "time-matching betwwen docs and medals".
But Michael is perfectly right on this very point: we're maybe in a deadlock?Comment
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I wonder if duty position or personal preference could come into play? Ralph and I spoke on the phone reference these grouping and came up with the possibility that this guy could have worked in the East German Embassy in Bulgaria. If this was the case he may have been required to attend official embassy functions and might have been required to have, or was provided new medals to wear in order to present a uniformed appearance. Another possibility could have been that this person had a “Type A” personality (also known as: being anal retentive) and wouldn’t want to mix match old with the new. Personally I wouldn’t want to use the medals I was actually awarded on a medal, and would have gone out and acquired another set.
JohnComment
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[quote=Stefas;2889151]Hello Michael,I think thats another question.They changed it for new ones because the medal got a complete different new look.
But why change a treue dienste gold from 1970 with a newer one from 1980?
There are no differences.
Does any former nva member knows??
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Stefas,
What you say makes perfect sense on the surface. But that is exactly what happened to me on one of my groupings, which includes all of the award document certficates and all of the graduation certificates and even photos.
Some of the treue Dienste and some of the Verdienste are the original old medals, and some apparently were later versions.
The absolute most bizarre part for me of all, is that this guy was NVA but graduated from a Police Academy.
I sometimes can only shake my head in wonderment at what was going on in the East German military.
Michael D. GALLAGHER
M60-A2 Tank Commander Cold War proverb: “You can accomplish more with a kind word and a ‘Shillelagh’ than you can with just a kind word.”Comment
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