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**JensF.** · 04-05-2003, 09:08 AM

Try these:

http://www.nva.de/

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...olksarmee.html

http://home.ptt.ru/ego/nva-links.html

**David F** · 04-06-2003, 04:32 PM

Hi thanks for the websites majorpayne,that gives me a place to start looking.but i stl need to know if the piping on the hats are the same as they were during the war?
thanks
DavidF

**JensF.** · 04-07-2003, 06:10 AM

Blue piping sounds like Air Force.

**Joe** · 04-07-2003, 06:33 PM

Here's an East German Air Force. Joe

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**James W** · 04-07-2003, 06:55 PM

By the way...

any sites like that for West Germany?

**Rev462** · 04-07-2003, 09:52 PM

East German Waffenfarbe Piping

Hello David.

The East German Army did use branch of service piping from 1956-1961. Here are the colors: White = Infantry; Red = Artillery; Yellow = Signals; Pink = Panzer; Black = Pioneer; Dark Green = Rear Services (administration, military justice, medical, etc.). The Ministry of State Security (MfS or "Stasi") also maintained armed troops and their color was Maroon.

As far as headgear, branch of service piping was used on the visor cap (officer and EM/NCO), the overseas hat (officers only - piped round the crown of the hat) and the M43 style winter hat (again officers only - piped round the crown). EM/NCO overseas hats and M43s were unpiped.

As for service tunics, collar tabs and shoulder boards were piped in branch of service color. Parade/walking out tunics, in addition to collar tabs and shoulderbaords, also had color - piped cuff bars and were piped round the cuffs (EM and officers) and the collar (officers only). Straight-leg walking out trousers were piped in waffenfabe down the leg.

After 1961 the waffenfarbe for all land forces (Stasi included) was changed to white for visor caps (piping on all overseas hats and winter hats was eliminated), and cuff and collar piping and trouser piping was also changed to white for all land forces. Branch of service color was kept for collar tabs, cuff bars and shoulderboards until about 1974/75, thereafter only the shoulderboards indicated branch of service. After 1982 the use of cuff bars for parade was discontinued.

The color for the Air Force was always that teal/blue, and the Border Troops used the bright green from 1962 - 1990. Air Defense used a combination of teal/blue piping for visor hats and tunic cuffs and collars with gray for collar tabs and cuff bars. The airborne troops got their own color in 1964 (orange), but this was after the transition to white uniform piping, so only collar tabs and cuff bars were piped in orange

Any pre-1962 color-piped piece of headgear or color-piped uniform is EXTREMELY RARE, with only a handful of examples known in the USA and Europe. For example, there is only 1 Panzer piped visor hat known in the US, and I know of 2 or 3 others in Europe, THAT"S IT!! Hopefully others will surface as people go through their attics over there!

Hope this was helpful and not too long-winded. I have a few pieces, if I have a chance I'll post photos. Please feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss this further.

Rick

**David F** · 04-14-2003, 12:43 PM

I my officers cap has arrived and i was wondering if someone could help me with the codes on the diamond on the inside?
the top code is Mdl with 57 under it.is this the size?
on the lower half of the cap is 1856 with the letter y under it.
any help would be appreciated
David F

**James W** · 04-14-2003, 04:31 PM

any sites like that for West Germany?

Indeed.

**Rev462** · 04-15-2003, 08:00 PM

Hello David.

Here's some information on those hat markings. "MdI" is the abbreviation for "Ministerium des Innern", or Ministry of the Interior, which had jurisdiction over all Police agenices of the DDR (Volkspolizei, Transport Protection Police, Fire, and Prison Administration). The 57 is the size, which is the circumference of the hat interior in centimeters. "1856" is, I believe, a supplier code number, sort of like the old RZM code numbers. The "Y" is a letter code for the year of manufacture, in this case 1988. Letter date codes were first introduced in 1968 and used up until the end in 1990. Prior to 1968 the year was indicated by the full 4-digit number, like "1964".

Markings for military hats are similar, except that they are marked "NVA" for Nationale Volksarmee. The "NVA" marking was used for all branches of the military: Army, Air Force, Air Defense, Border Troops and Navy. (Armed Stasi troops also took their uniforms and hats from NVA stocks and therefore their stuff also has "NVA" markings.)

The complete list of date codes is: K=1968; Z=1969; M=1970; X=1971; B=1972; L=1973; O=1974; S=1975; R=1976; A=1977; U=1978; F=1979; E=1980; G=1981; I=1982; C=1983; H=1984; T=1985; P=1986; L=1987; Y=1988; N=1989; D=1990.

There is no apparent rhyme or reason to the date codes, they must have been picked at random. Note that L is used twice, in 1973 and again in 1987.

There's more to this story, but this should get you started. Let me know if you'd like more info on DDR markings - sometimes it can be the difference between an everyday common item and a rare gem.

REV462

**David F** · 04-17-2003, 02:00 PM

HI i have now bought a border guards uniform and was wondering about the codes printed on the inside the tunic and trousers?
the code in the trousers is MDI 1850A/2
(i know what the MDI code is for)
the tunic is 1802 g48-0 1T?
any clues or a point in the right direction would be greatful
David F

**Rev462** · 04-17-2003, 09:05 PM

Hello David.

As with headgear, tunics and pants were marked with either "NVA" or "MdI", the year of manufacture, the supplier code number and the size.

The date codes posted for headgear also apply to clothing, although, in addition to the letter code, there is also either a Roman numeral or a regular number separated from the letter code by a slash (most of the time). The number is the quarter of the year. For example, a marking of "2/A" would indicate the 2nd quarter of 1977, or "F/III" would be the 3rd quarter of 1979. Sometimes the year is first, sometimes the quarter. The "1850" is again the supplier code number.

The "1T" in the tunic indicates the 1st quarter of 1985. 1802 is the supplier code number, and "g48-0" is the size. The East Germans had a complex system of sizes, but the basic sizes were designated as "44", "48", "52", "56" and "60". A size 52 tunic is roughly equivalent to about a US size 42 sportcoat. The letters "g", "k", "m" in front of the number indicate whether the tunic is long and slim ("g"), short ("k") or husky ("m"). Any numbers after the size, like the "-0" indicate a further modification of the size, such as extra room in the shoulders. I have a reference somwhere that lists these - I'll try to dig it up.

The purpose of this sizing system was to try to fit most people with "off the rack" uniforms, with a minimum of alterations. Occasionally you might find a private purchase tunic (yes, they did exist, especially in the early years) - these typically have none of the standard issue markings (sometimes they are completely unmarked), or sometimes they will have a shop label in them.

All the above information is pretty much standard for uniforms made from about 1972 onward. Prior to that, the sizing and marking systems were different. From 1956 to about 1971, there were about 3 different marking systems used at various times. I'll save that for another posting- this is long enough!

Finally, Border Troops uniforms will be marked "NVA", piped in green, and will have the "Grenztruppen der DDR" cuff title. The Grenztruppen cuff title was created in about 1974, prior to that Grenz personnel wore the standard dark collar Army tunic with green-piped collar tabs and of course green-backed shoulderboards.

REV462

**olivyaya** · 12-03-2003, 02:43 PM

I was lucky to find a GT officer jacket dated 1970 (Z) without any cuff title which was correct at that time... have u ever seen any ??? It is in great condition and has an open V neck collar.
Thanks for attention !

**Rev462** · 12-03-2003, 05:22 PM

Hello Olivyaya!

Yes! I have an open collar Grenz officer tunic in my collection. It is dated 1971 if I remember correctly, it has no cuff title or piping. Congratulations - You have a nice gem there!

My theory is that they started playing with open collar tunics a couple years before the regulations were officially changed and that they were issued to a limited number of "guinea pig" units to evaluate them.

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