Police General Ribbon Bar

[Thälmannpionier]

hello all

this is my first Ribbon Bar bought from ebay. I would like to get some confirmation that its a original, because its the first time I handle those Ribbons and never saw the backside of those Ribbon Bars before and need to know if its an original, as the backing material,where the bars are sewn on, looks quite large. Or is it they way they have to look?
Thanks & Regards
Andreas

[Thälmannpionier]

back

[Stefas]

hello all

this is my first Ribbon Bar bought from ebay. I would like to get some confirmation that its a original, because its the first time I handle those Ribbons and never saw the backside of those Ribbon Bars before and need to know if its an original, as the backing material,where the bars are sewn on, looks quite large. Or is it they way they have to look?
Thanks & Regards
Andreas

Hello,I saw them a few times this way.weren't they sewn on the jacket???
I think the materials are original,some off them aren't easy to get ( the polnisch and sovjet waffenbruder).

[Mike G.]

Andreas,

Nice General Officer ribbon bar collection. Ribbons for general officers were commonly sewed onto material backing such as the one like you acquired. The backing was colored to match the type and color of Tunic upon which the ribbons were to be mounted.

Just an observation. The backing upon which the ribbons are fixed, appears to be gray in color.

The VVO is on white backing.

It would appear the ribbons were intended for wear on a Dress (Gayla) Uniform. The cut-out of the gray backing clearly indicates a VVO is meant to be part of the ribbon grouping. If this were for a normal service uniform, I would think the ribbons would be fixed to a green in color material backing (Police). So presumably, this particular set was meant for a Dress Tunic (White). Normally, the entire backing was of the same color as the Tunic upon which the ribbons were to be mounted. Not having a General Officer Gayla (Dress) Tunic for Police, I cannot say for sure what color backing material was used. But I can say for sure that the VVO ribbon is intended for a Gayla (White) Dress Tunic.

Again, this is just an observation.

[SCHUPO]

Andreas,

The Gayla tunic for police is called the Ausgangsuniform in MdI regulations. There is a double breasted Ausgangsjacke for males and a single breasted Kost******252;mjacke for females. The color of the Ausgangsjacke for Deutsche Volkspolizei is schiffgr******252;n (light green) while the color of the Ausgangsjacke for Feuerwehr, Strafvollzug, Transport, Wasserschutz, Hafenpolizei and Hubschraubereinheit is polizeigrau (grey) per regulations.

It seems you are looking for a white tunic (not regulation for police general officers) or a grey tunic (probably Feuerwehr or Transportpolizei). I don't know if the other police branches had general rank officers but it would certainly be a short list who would have been awarded these interimsspangen.

I hope this is helpful.

[Mike G.]

Thanks Schupo,

Your observations are profound and make sense. I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade, but the ribbon bar clearly is meant for a gray in color Tunic. Your examples that you provided for which branch of service this ribbon bar might be intended make very good sense. There is of course the one obvious glitch, which of course is the VVO. It too should be gray in color, and not white. So there is cause still to scratch one's head.

By the way. You educated me on something I did not know. I always thought all General Officer Gayla Tunics were white in color, regardless of branch. Until now I didn't know the Police General Officers wore green in color Gayla Tunics.

Good to know. Thanks.

[Thälmannpionier]

Thanks all for the help

The whole backing material is snow white. The VVO Ribbon is indeed white but I guess thats the only way the cloth VVO Ribbons were produced.
Speaking of grey and white Gala Jackets, could it be possible that this Generals Ribbon Bar is more likely for a Generals Summer Shirt? I mean those Creme-white Shirts for Generals. I think they were the same in colour for all branches.
Regards

[Mike G.]

Andreas,

The white material on the reverse of the ribbon bar is no problem. This is correct. Are you saying the front of the backing material also is white in color? On the photograph it appears that the front of the backing material to which the ribbons (except the VVO) are attached is white in color. The white of the VVO very much stands out against it.

If the front of the backing material is gray, then it is the overall gray color of the ribbon bar outline, and the white VVO that gives cause for discussion.

By the way, the cloth VVO ribbon bars were also produced in gray. That is how they are on my NVA Open Collar era General's Tunic. That is what gives me cause to question this particular ribbon bar. The presence of three Waffenbruderschaft ribbons pretty much rules out any of the branches of service to which Schupo made reference, except for the Barracks Police. However, the gray in color backing and white VVO pretty much rule out Barracks Police. I think if the ribbon bar is legitimate, then there can be only one possibility - Stasi. Even then, I think the VVO to be correct, should be gray.

But, if the front of the ribbon bar backing material also is white, then this clearly is meant for a white General Officer Gayla (Dress) Tunic. So this would then seem based upon the information provided by Schupo, to be more in line for a Stasi General Officer, as Police General Gayla Tunics were green. As noted earlier, the front of the backing material matched the color of the Tunic to which the ribbons were to be mounted. And of course, the white VVO ribbon then also would be correct.

[Thälmannpionier]

Andreas,

The white material on the reverse of the ribbon bar is no problem. This is correct. Are you saying the front of the backing material also is white in color? On the photograph it appears that the front of the backing material to which the ribbons (except the VVO) are attached is white in color. The white of the VVO very much stands out against it.

If the front of the backing material is gray, then it is the overall gray color of the ribbon bar outline, and the white VVO that gives cause for discussion.

By the way, the cloth VVO ribbon bars were also produced in gray. That is how they are on my NVA Open Collar era General's Tunic. That is what gives me cause to question this particular ribbon bar. The presence of three Waffenbruderschaft ribbons pretty much rules out any of the branches of service to which Schupo made reference, except for the Barracks Police. However, the gray in color backing and white VVO pretty much rule out Barracks Police. I think if the ribbon bar is legitimate, then there can be only one possibility - Stasi. Even then, I think the VVO to be correct, should be gray.
.

thanks alot for the informative Help
The colour of the backing material showing to the fron is the same like the backside,white. Maybe my Scans are not that good to see the real colour.
I took a photo of it today.
So Afterall, this could be a MfS Generals Ribbon Bar?
Were those Ribbon Bars still produced in the "Wendezeit" around 1990? Or could this Ribbon Bar really belong to some General?
Regards
Andreas

[Mike G.]

Hi Andreas,

Thanks for showing another photo that better shows the color. Yes, this ribbon bar, if legitimate, would definitely be attached to a white General Officer Gayla Tunic/Jacket. Given that as Schupo pointed out, the Gayla Jacket worn by Police General Officers was green in color, that pretty much rules out a Police General. The Stasi, dependent upon Career progression, could acquire awards and decorations in just about any branch of service - even civilian organizations. The only rationale explanation for the ribbon bar then being on a white in color background, is that it is Stasi.

Of course, it could be a Post 1990 put-together. Many of these exist. Many of them actually duplicate ribbon bars worn by actual former NVA, Polizei and Stasi General Officers. So it is sometimes hard to tell. I would suspect that a ribbon bar such as this, which is not already attached to a Tunic/Jacket, has a good chance of being a post 1990 repro. But it could be real too. The ribbons in any case, are all real ones, even if the ribbon bar as a set might not be.

I know of at least one German Dealer that occasionally has these for auction on German Ebay. He is an honest dealer, and always identifies them as replicas. That does not mean there are not real ones out there too.

Anyway, it is still a nice set.

[Gordon Craig]

Andreas,

A couple of points. Cloth ribbon bars were never worn on shirts. Shirt sleeve dress allowed for only four ribbons to be worn so you will always see period photos of generals in shirt sleeve wearing a metal type ribbon bar.

2-I think everyone is skirting the issue, and possibly rightly so, that there is a good chance this ribbon bar is not post 1990. None of us wants to say definitely that it is a repro becuase who can be that positive from a picture? These cloth ribbon bars come up on ebay.de too often for me and as Michael says there are lots of acknowledged repros out there. The white background does not look correct to me. To be a cloth bar it would have to be old and white felt does not stay white for long. It goes darker quickly and often turns yellow. I think it would have been around long enough to pick up some dirt along the way.

3-My only uniform (a Generals) with a cloth ribbon bar is at home in Canada so I can not have a look at mine and compare construction between the two and I wish that I could. It would make a good thread to compare all of the cloth ribbon bars attached to tunics and compare how they are made, how they are sewn on etc. But then some of us might have a nasty surprise waiting for us!
As Michael says, it is still a nice loking bar.

Regards,

Gordon

[Thälmannpionier]

Andreas,

A couple of points. Cloth ribbon bars were never worn on shirts. Shirt sleeve dress allowed for only four ribbons to be worn so you will always see period photos of generals in shirt sleeve wearing a metal type ribbon bar.

2-I think everyone is skirting the issue, and possibly rightly so, that there is a good chance this ribbon bar is not post 1990. None of us wants to say definitely that it is a repro becuase who can be that positive from a picture? These cloth ribbon bars come up on ebay.de too often for me and as Michael says there are lots of acknowledged repros out there. The white background does not look correct to me. To be a cloth bar it would have to be old and white felt does not stay white for long. It goes darker quickly and often turns yellow. I think it would have been around long enough to pick up some dirt along the way.

3-My only uniform (a Generals) with a cloth ribbon bar is at home in Canada so I can not have a look at mine and compare construction between the two and I wish that I could. It would make a good thread to compare all of the cloth ribbon bars attached to tunics and compare how they are made, how they are sewn on etc. But then some of us might have a nasty surprise waiting for us!
As Michael says, it is still a nice loking bar.

Regards,

Gordon

Gordon,

Thanks for your help and input
Im also not convinced that this is a pre1990 Ribbon Bar. It is of Course,made from original DDR produced Ribbons but probably mounted together in 1990 for the already present Collector & Dealer Market then.There is no Sign on the back,that this Ribbon Bar was ever attached to a Tunic.
But nevertheless, for 23EUR it wasn't a bad Buy and there is nothing to regret. those Ribbon Bars do display very nice even without a Tunic and i could imagine to get a habbit to collect them, as they look nice and colourfull when on display
Regards