Wach Rgt Engels Tunics

[Mike G.]

Just an observation, but this "Unissued" Tunic has a Career Service "Winkel" on the left sleeve.....

[Kievit]

Matteo, a few years back I bought 4 unissued Wachregiment Engels dienst tunics at a flea market for a few euros each. I don't think the seller did anything to this tunics other than move them around in boxes; I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even know exactly what they were - he was just about selling anything. Anyhow I never noticed anything that suggested that the sleeves had been opened (and I always check), and they all had the cuff title. I don't have them anymore, I think Stefas has one of these 4 now. I'll ask if he can check.

[iannima]

How can this be explained ?
And how can we explain the opened lining on Matteo's Duty tunics ??????

Olivier,
I have just made a discovery... Probably too obvious but never mind...
ALL tunics have their lining in the left sleeve opened and restitched and that is original and has nothing to do with the cuff title as it happens much closer to the shoulder.
It is done to attach the warehouse label ...

[olivyaya]

Olivier,
I have just made a discovery... Probably too obvious but never mind...
ALL tunics have their lining in the left sleeve opened and restitched and that is original and has nothing to do with the cuff title as it happens much closer to the shoulder.
It is done to attach the warehouse label ...

This tunic on ebay has been puzzling me a lot too...
What do you mean ALL tunics had their lining open and restitched ? All my tunics have untouched lining... besides, your hypothesis would mean ALL tunics, from all branches of the NVA should have the same detail as you described... which apparently is not the case...

[Garulfo]

Just an observation, but this "Unissued" Tunic has a Career Service "Winkel" on the left sleeve.....

This was done this way for WR tunics as all soldiers are career. On my Dzierzynski tunic the Winkel is fabric sewn too (lining was never opened).

[iannima]

This tunic on ebay has been puzzling me a lot too...
What do you mean ALL tunics had their lining open and restitched ? All my tunics have untouched lining... besides, your hypothesis would mean ALL tunics, from all branches of the NVA should have the same detail as you described... which apparently is not the case...

Sorry the inspiration came to me yesterday because I realised that even opening the lining like that, I could not have sown the cuff title with my sewing machine. I could have done it by hand but not by machine. What was also odd was that the opening was further up the sleeve towards the shoulder. That set me thinking that maybe that opening had nothing to do with the cuff title which, on mine, appears to have machine stitched directly onto the outer cloth laid flat. It would not be that neat otherwise. I then started wondering what that opening would be for. It is then that I checked the left sleeve lining of all my tunics. ALL of them regardless of rank or age (black collar, open collar, gabardine, Filz) have had their lining opened and restitched. Many of my tuincs were mint when I got them with the warehouse label still attached. I removed it to make the tunics wearable . What I regret is that I do not have any more a mint tunic with the label attaced which could verify this story. But I am pretty certain that that is the case and has nothing to do with the cuff title.

[olivyaya]

Here is another puzzling one ...

http://cgi.ebay.de/N-V-A-Uniformjack...ayphotohosting

[olivyaya]

Here is another puzzling find I have just received. The cuff bars are originally sown onto the tunic ; the lining stitching appears to be 100% untouched... the strange thing is that the cuff title has been added onto the tunic and hand sown...
The tunic is an original 'ausgang' Wachregiment one as the absence of collar piping shows... what also makes me say the tunic appears to be all originally mounted is that it is quite dusty/dirty (which does not realy appear on the pictures) and the dirt is equally distributed all over the tunic...
Before coming across the cuffless tunics on ebay (see above) I would have
argued the tunic might have come out the factory with a cuff title... and then damaged and replaced by the owner...
Now it appears as an evidence to me : at least some of those WachRgt tunics were tailored without a cuff title ! The next question would be for what purpose ?

[Mike G.]

Olivier,

Just an observation - it is possible to take a dirty Wach Regiment Cuff Title and sew it on a dirty Wach Regiment Uniform.

[iannima]

Michael,
I do not think that that would work: dirt is surprisingly heterogenous, the chances of finding a way of dirtying a cuff title to the same shade of dirt of the tunic are pretty slim... Doubtlessly that is the sort of thing that professional fakers of Nazi stuff do but the money involved there (and hence the incentive to go to such lengths) is very different. Two tunics like Olivier's are currently for sale on Ebay from Bernhard Troeger (troegerb) at €35 each.
I have said it before on this thread and I shall repeat it: these tunics were specific to the three Wachregiment and therefore command a higher value (relatively speaking) regardless of whether they have the cuff title or not. I appreciate that the addition of a cuff title to an ordinary four button tunic would possibly increase its value by -say- €20 or €30, but this is a different case.

I think we shall just have to come to terms with the fact that something strange happened in DDR times on the way the cuff titles were added to the tunics. For whatever reason at some stage (possibly a mistake), tunics were produced without the cuff title (and we have seen an example of these), which meant that it had to be added at a later stage presumably at the moment of issue. Why did this happen? That remains a mystery and our theories are unlikely to be of much use as at the end of the day the majority of these tunics (including mine) must have had their title sown on at the very early stages of production when the unlined sleeves was just a piece of cloth that could be laid flat.

But far fetched as these theories might be, concieving of a fiendish dealer, in a Frankenstein laboratory, forever scheming and plotting to fool us in newer and more cunning ways in order to increase the value of his wares by possibly a Euro or two, is equally far fetched....

What for me is more interesting is the presence of cuff bars, presumably originally there, as it documents that these tunics were also intended to be used for Parade and Ausgang, even though no photographic evidence of their usage at the Neue Wache has so far come to light.

[iannima]

I think we also need to remember that in a socialist command economy production is done for the sake of meeting the targets set out in the plan. The actual demand or need for the product itself is not a consideration that plays any role in the mind of the factory producing the stuff. And because bottlenecks are an endemic feature of such a vertically integrated economy, short cuts will be found in order to meet the letter of the target, even though the final product as a result will not meet the needs of its ultimate users. So for entertainment value, I shall tell you a story ...

In the torrid summer of 1983, the chief manager of Factory N. 1850 Uniformbekleidung was sweating profusely in a heated meeting of his chief engineers and heads of production lines. They all seemed much more interested in blaming each other than actually solving the problem at hand. The engineers blamed the production line managers for having failed to keep the specified maintenance routine of the machines. The production line managers blamed the engineers for their inability to repair the machines... They also blamed the unprecedented temperatures for having caused overheating of the machines. The argument went on without purpose or direction...to the despair of the chief manager.
The fact of the matter was that the embroidering machine had broken down. Parts that would put it back into action were not available. Frantic phone calls to the machine factory had ended up in nothing: spares were not currently available as their production was only scheduled for the third quarter of the following year.
The situation was pretty desperate: the machine was needed to embroider the cuff titles for hundreds of thousands of tunics for the three Wachregiment which the plan specified had to be ready by the end of the year. And stitching the cuff title onto the sleeve was technically one of the first operations involved. Stitching it on at the end of the process was far too laborious: it basically involved doing it by hand. Too long by any standard. Granted, a substantial pile of cuff titles was around, as the chief manager had been at this job for far too long not to have predicted such a problem, but even his foresight was not enough to solve the problem: an optimistic estimate indicated that the pre-produced cuff titles would only manage to cover 60% of the planned production.
The mind of the chief manager wandered off from the stupidly acrimonious debate before his eyes... they did not care after all. What was it for them if the production targets were not met? Nothing obviously. He alone was responsible and he knew that all his subordinates were all just conspiring towards a delay of the production so that they could have an easier life. Yes, an easier life for them at the price of a more difficult one for himself... he thought bitterly.
In the darkness of these thoughts, a light shone through: he had recently spoken at an SED sponsored dinner with an Oberstleutenant at the Ministry of Defence who was high up in the Bekleidung und A******252;rustung department. He seemed amenable to reason... Perhaps a phone call to him might solve the issue... He quickly came back to his bickering subordinates and shouted loud enough to gain their attention. This might warrant another entry in his Stasi file but who cared any way? He quickly told all of them off for just wasting time and ordered production to go ahead with existing available cuff titles and that if the machines had not been repaired by the time these had run out, that production be continued without cuff titles.
"In my time in the army, we had a lot of stitching to do. The soldiers will just have to sew the cuff title themselves!" He shouted...
All his subordinates looked down at the table in front of them. If their chief manager was willing to stick his neck out, let him do it on his own. They all thought. The best strategy was to acquiesce and lay low.
And this they all did. They all muttered a half-hearted "Jawohl, Genosse" and they quickly filed out of the chief manager's office...
Left on his own, the chief manager did not waste any time and quickly looked for the telephone number of that Oberstleutenant. As he dialled he quickly thought that a promise would have to be made that delivery of the missing cuff titles at some stage in the near future. Something like that would have to be said. He quickly thought of something pleasant to start off the conversation: some funny story about the last SED meeting. But something was needed that would possibly and quickly lead to his reminiscing about his time in the army. And some story that bring to light how adaptability and practicality were essential characteristics of a good soldier... Something like that would do...
The phone was ringing... sharp lines crossed the forehead of the chief manager, but they all distended as a beaming smiles opened on his lips...
" Genosse Oberstleutenant M******252;ller? How nice to find you!"

[Mike G.]

I have absolutely no idea where this is going so I'm bowing out to those that do.



Tschuess.

[olivyaya]

Michael,
I do not think that that would work: dirt is surprisingly heterogenous, the chances of finding a way of dirtying a cuff title to the same shade of dirt of the tunic are pretty slim...

I fully agree with you Matteo... the dirt is homogeneously spread all over the tunic !! You can see the title belongs to it !

[iannima]

I have absolutely no idea where this is going so I'm bowing out to those that do.



Tschuess.

Oh Michael!! I thought my little story would entertain you! It certainly was not meant to drive you away...

[Capt. R]

Stretching it a bit

I think you all are stretching it a bit and arguing for your position that cuftitles were added after leaving the factory. They were not. I'd be very suspicious of any cufftitle that looks like that one. Dirt or no uniform dirt. Dirt may be uniformly applied to a frankenstein tunic as easily as to a good one.

I'd have to go with Mike on this one. His logic is supreme here.

THere are tons of Wach Rgt cufftitles floating around. Not tough to see some guy putting 2 and 2 together and trying to make a buck by adding one to a tunic.

Also, some of those tags sewn onto the shoulders do not merely indicate an UNISSUED tunic, but may be from an alteration of an old tunic. It explain how a service stripe may exist on a tunic and still have some sort of card sewn onto the sleeve.

And soldiers wouldn't be trusted to sew there own cufftitles - especially in an elite, high-profile unit. Sewing a cufftitle is difficult, not for the young soldat to do back in barracks. NCO's and officers would go nuts seeing some of the half-a--ed jobs that would occur. That is not something any elite unit would tolerate, let alone encourage!!