Wach Rgt Engels Tunics

[olivyaya]

Here are 2 recent finds : a NCO and an EM parade tunic from the Wach Rgt Engels.
The troops tunic is dated 1982 the same year the Rgt was created. And the NCO one is dated from 1987. The interesting thing is inside : there is no fabric strap and metalic ring inside the tunic to attach the dagger. instead, two elastic straps sown on both sides (see picture) ... they ,are sown all the way through the tunic and the stitching can be seen outside the tunic ; these are, from what I know, meant to be buttonned up to the parade trousers.

[olivyaya]

[iannima]

Nice Tunics Olivier
and very interesting detail of the elastic strap to keep the tunic down. I have two pairs of late Reithosen which are a bit weird in that they have belt loops but they6 also have two small buttons on the waist which were puzzling to me. Now I know what they were meant for . I need to modify my tuincs accordingly

[olivyaya]

Nice Tunics Olivier
and very interesting detail of the elastic strap to keep the tunic down. I have two pairs of late Reithosen which are a bit weird in that they have belt loops but they6 also have two small buttons on the waist which were puzzling to me. Now I know what they were meant for . I need to modify my tuincs accordingly

Thanks Matteo !
From my observations, early Wach Rgt tunics did not have these elastic straps... the 1982 one here does not. I am about to receive another troop tunic from 1988 that has the elastic straps too !
What kind of tunic are you talking about when talking about modifications ? Do you think these straps were only used onto WachRgt tunics ??

[Mike G.]

Olivier,

Those are truly great finds. There are of course the "Put-together" Wachregiment Friedrich Engels uniforms that appear every now and then on ebay for sale, but seldom does the real deal become available.

You've given away a nifty clue as to how to tell the real from the fake with respect to the later Tunics. Not having an earlier one, I assumed all of the Friedrich Engel Tunics were constructed the same way.

Mine, which I acquired from a former member of the Wachregiment Friedrich Engels is dated 1st quarter 1988. It of course is constructed the same as your 87 Tunic. I did not however know that earlier Tunics, such as the 82 you acquired, were made differently.

Also I have a question. I know the Keubke/Kunz Uniform Book (1st edition) is in error on Page 186 withi respect to the date given for a uniform example relevant to Wachregiment Friedrich Engels. They indicate 1974. But you indicated the transition in Berlin from the NVA Wachregiment to the Wachregiment Friedrich Engels occurred in 1982. I for some reason had it in my head that it occurred while I was there between 1978 and 1982. I was under the impression it happened in 1980?

Does anyone know for certain.

I recall about two years ago there was a former member of the Ceremonial Regiment in Berlin who posted for a time on the Gunboards DDR Forum. He served in both the NVA Wachregiment, and then when it transitioned, in the Wachregiment Friedrich Engels. Does anyone recall if the question was put to him? And if it was, what his answer was as to when the transition actually occurred?

Hope I didn't derail this thread - that was not my intention.

Great uniforms Olivier. Congratulations are in order.

[iannima]

Michael,
Here is a rather bad photograph picked up on the same German forum I mentioned in another thread. It shows the Stadtkommandanten von Berlin Generalmajor Karl Heinz Drews giving the name of Friedrich Engels to the Wachregiment N. 1. The date is given to be the 4th of October 1980.

[iannima]

Olivier,
I am not quite sure whether we can infer that all Wachregiment tunics might have had these straps added. I suspect it to have been a modification carried out in the barracks themselves.
Wearing these uniforms myself, I know what the problem is: the tunic has a tendency to ride up as you lift your arms, and it buckles and creases where the belt is. The more arm swinging you do, the more it rides up, hence the need pretty constantly to straitghten it by pulling it down with your hands. It is often mentioned in books about Wehrmacht officers too. It is just a fact of life when one wears a fitted tunic with a substantial belt. Now obviously pulling the tunic down with their hands was not an option for the Wachregiment and they certainly had a lot of swinging to do with their arms which would have made this riding up a serious problem. I must say I am going to experiment with one tunic but I am not 100% convinced that a couple of elastic straps are going to solve the problem that conclusively. I suspect that it was an experiment carried out at the Wachregiment only.
This is not the only modification that must have been tried for the specific needs of ceremonial units. If you have the video of Zapfenstreich on the 7th of October 1989, have a look at the drummer who plays the very large drums mounted on tripods. He swings his arms up in the air quite a lot and his tunic rises quite a lot with the belt always in the correct position. I suspect that a larger tunic was used with the belt pinned to it.
But I would not from this infer that all bandsmen tunic must necessarily have the belt pinned to them. Similarly I do not think we should look for these straps as evidence of originality for a Friedrich Engels tunic.

[Mike G.]

Thanks Matteo,

The reason I asked about the date, which you have confirmed, is that even though at the time I did not know of the existence of Wachregiments in East Berlin, or know one from the other, I recalled that sometime in 1980, the uniform of the guards at the Neue Wache changed. I at the time attributed it to a uniform change, and not a Wachregiment change, not of course knowing what was going on, until many years later.

The response and photo are greatly appreciated.

[olivyaya]

Very interesting info and questions ! Walther Book dates the Engles cuff titles from 1982 !!! Maybe the Engels Rgt was instituted in 1980, but the correct titled uniforms issued from 1982 on... ??
On your b&w pic, Mike, we cannot see what the titles read ... maybe they were still WACHRGT ones at the time the Rgt split into 2 Regiments and remained the same until 1982 ??
As for earlier uniforms without the elastic straps, I have seen a few and I am still questioning myself... the troops one on the pic does not ave the straps... and from the arm paper label, I can assume it has never been issued. Which would make sense to Matteo's idea : the straps were added after the tunics were tailored, once issued to the Regiment. But one detail is puzzling me : the troops tunis is a basic officer one, with the inside dagger strap and ring... the NCO one, that has the elastic straps, does NOT have any dagger strap end ring at all (not even any marks of a removed one...!!!) !!
I am about to receive another troops one from 1988 that has the straps... will shoot pics when it is here !

[Mike G.]

Olivier,

The photograph to which you made reference was posted by Matteo.
But I can assure you there was not both an NVA Wachregiment and a Wachregiment Fredrich Engels in Berlin at the same time. This is because the NVA Wachregiment in Berlin was deactivated, and its personnel reactivated into the Wachregiment Friedrich Engels. This only occurred to NVA-Wachregiment 1, then posted in Berlin. NVA-Wachregiment 2 continued to exist and perform ceremmonial guard duties in Strausberg, East Germany. Wachregiment Freidrich Engels from 1980 forward until deactivation in 1990 existed as the only elite ceremonial "specific" guard unit in Berlin.

As for the Klaus Walther Book - I too have this publication, and on page 86 it indicates the Wachregiment Friedrich Engels Cuff Band Title came into use effective 1980.

Lastly, as I commented, I was in Berlin from 78 to 82, and observed in 1980, a marked difference in the uniforms of the soldiers performing ceremonial duties in East Berlin, and guarding the Neue Wache.

I feel fairly confident given the information provided by Matteo (photograph he posted), the Walther Book and my personal observations while there, the change did indeed take place in 1980.

About the questons you posed with respect to your two Tunics. The NCO Tunic clearly is real. Is it possible the Lower Rank Tunic is a "Put-together" ?
This is very common on ebay. It sounds to me someone took an officer Tunic and sewed enlisted insignia on it, along with a Wachregiment Friedrich Engels Cuff Band. How is the Cuff Band attached to the Lower Rank Tunic? Perhaps that will provide more insight to why the Tunic has the Dagger strap and ring. This clearly is not correct. While it is true the Enlisted Tunics were made of Officer Quality Gabardine - they were not Officer Tunics. This was true not just for the Wachregiments in Berlin, but all Military units in Berlin.

[iannima]

I think it would be helpful if we just remembered that what happened is just that the NVA Wachregiment N.1 received the honorary name Friedrich Engels on the grounds that this philosopher had done his military service in the barracks allocated to that regiment. It was not disbanded or changed its nature. It just changed name. Now what still remains a mystery to me is what the NVA Wachregiment N.2 did. It did exist alongsde Regiment N. 1. It was not stationed in central Berlin but I think not that far off and it retained the cuff title "NVA Wachregiment" until the end. And no I am not confusing it with the Driezinsky regiment. There were a total of three Wachregiments: two NVA ones and a Stasi one.

[Mike G.]

Matteo,

I’m not sure I follow you. It was clearly more than a simple name change. Having served in the Military myself, I am somewhat familiar with the creation and subsequent deactivation of military units. The NVA-Wachregiment 1 was a part of the NVA. It had its own destinctive Regimental Flag. When the Wachregiment Friedrich Engels was activated Oct. 7, 1980 in Berlin, it was given its own Regimental Flag. More importantly, it was not under the NVA. Unlike its predecessor, it answered to the Stadtkommandantur Berlin. It is correct that the members of the original NVA-Wachregiment remained and became overnight so to speak, members of the Wachregiment Friedrich Engels. But without question, a Regimental Flag was sheathed, and a new Regimental Flag was unsheathed. That is in military terms - a deactivation of one unit, and an activation of another.


There were in fact a total of four destinct Wachregiments, each with their own Regimental Flag. But only three were activated at any one time. It is important to understand these units were not in fact actual regiments in the context of what a regiment was in the regular NVA. They were very much larger. In the context of what a normal NVA regiment was comprised, Wachregiment Felix-Dzierzynski for example was enormous.

Wachregiment 2 Hugo Eberlein was the fourth Wachregiment, and was named for Hugo EBERLEIN (1887-1944). He was a cofounder of the German Communist Party (KPD). He left Germany and relocated in Russia in 1933. During the Soviet Police purges that followed, he was among those arrested. He died in prison.
Although a separate Wachregiment in its own right, it did not have its own Cuff Title. It wore the NVA-Wachregiment Cuff Title also worn by NVA-Wachregiment 1. However, after Oct 7, 1980 it was the only remaining NVA-Wachregiment, and the sole wearer of that Cuff-Title.

So this is what there was that was out there with respect to Wachregiments:
NVA-Wachregiment 1 - Until 1980, East Berlin.
NVA-Wachregiment 2 (Hugo Eberlein) – Strausberg, East Germany. (Near Berlin).
Wachregiment Felix-Dzierzynski (Stasi) – East Berlin and East Germany.
Wachregiment Friedrich Engels – East Berlin only.

Mission:

NVA-Wachregiment 1: performed ceremonial duties and guarded the Neue Wache in Berlin.

NVA-Wachregiment 2: guarded the Ministry for National Defense command center in Strausberg.

Wachregiment Felix-Dzierzynski was unique in that it had both a guard force and a combat arms unit. The guard force was responsible for guarding MfS, MdI and other State buildings of importance. It did not perform ceremonial duties in the context NVA-Wachregiment 1 and Wachregiment Friedrich Engels did. The combat element of the Wachregiment Felix-Dzierzynski was equipped similar to an actual NVA Rifle Regiment. During the de-militarization of East Germany, information found in Strausberg disclosed its combat mission was to secure West Berlin by force.

Wachregiment Friedrich-Engels: Performed ceremonial guard duties at the Neue Wache, and ceremonial duties in general, in East Berlin.

By the way. I have an NVA-Wachregiment Tunic, which is dated 1st Quarter 1988, as is my Wachregiment Friedrich Engels Tunic. I presume given the date, it is from NVA-Wachregiment 2 in Strausberg.

[iannima]

Well that's where this book on the history of the Wachregiment would really be helpful. What is not clear to me in your account is your claim that its subordination to the Stadtkommandantur von Berlin, meant that it was outside the command structure of the NVA, in what appear to be a similar way that the Driezinsky regiment was not controlled by the Minister for National Defence but by the Minister of National Security. I have no doubt on the latter as this was Stasi and not NVA any way. But I would have thought that the NVA nature of the Friedrich Engels would have been maintained. Wasn't the Stadtkommandatur itself subordinated to the hierarchy of the NVA? I know that dictatorships tend to develop private armies, but are you claiming that the Engels regiment had become entirely separate from the ordinary NVA? It would seem odd given that its officers were NVA ones and its recruits went through the same conscription of the rest of the Army.

I am also not clear about what you mean by significant changes with the change of name. Well obviously a new flag was given and some minor modifications to the uniform were done (basically the white belt and the cuff title, if I am not wrong). Now significant and conspicuous as these may be in military ceremonial terms, I am not sure it could be compared to the creation of an altogether new regiment (by the amalgamation of two existing ones -say- as it often happens in Britain). Regiments were given honorary names at several stages. e.g. the Panzerregiment N.9 (I think but I could be wrong) was given the name of Heinz Hoffman after the latter's death in 1985. I don't quite see the need to regard the Heinz Hoffman regiment as different from the Panzerregiment N.9. Why should the dedication of the Wachregiment N.1to Friedrich Engels be so different? Aside from ceremonies obviously... It really goes against my nature to disregard ceremonial matters...which I always consider of the essence

[Mike G.]

Hi Matteo,

Perhaps I'm missing something, but for some reason, I get the impression that the word "Deactivation" somehow is by definition under your terms, a dirty word.

I too wish the book about which you made reference would be published. I am beginning to believe it never will be, though I am not sure what the problem is. It was already supposed to be on shelves last December.

To try and better answer your question, and explain my position as best I can, let me put it this way. There was this small matter of politics, which somehow has been left out of the equation. During the Cold War, Berlin was unique with respect to East and West Germany in that Martial Law remained in effect. And both the East German Government and its Land Army were officially unrecognized by the US, British and French. A very sticky point that continuously came up during the 4 Power meetings was the agreement with the Soviets that there would be no NVA land troops of any kind stationed in East Berlin. The Russians were no doubt caught between a rock and hardplace with regards to this dilemma, particularly when responding back to the East German Politburo on the matter. But it was something the US, British and French would not budge on, and they slowly but methodically kept chipping away at it until eventually, it was resolved in their favor. The NVA-Wachregiment and the Grenztruppen der NVA were a source of contention with respect to that agreement. Detant helped with respect to the question of the Grenztruppen der NVA, and in 1976 it was officially removed from the auspices of the NVA; they were even issued new Cuff Bands to go with their new Title - Grenztruppen der DDR. This went a long way to appeasing tensions with respect to the 4 Power Committee, but it did not resolve everything that was in contention; which was another unit running around inside the confines of East Berlin flaunting an NVA Cuff Band. That of course would be the NVA-Wachregiment. Of course we all know they were not a combat arms unit, but politics sometimes is blind on principal. The changing of the NVA-Wachregiment was not just because someone recognized that Friedrich Engels was associated with the Guard House. It was more the otherway round. How to keep an elite Ceremonial Unit in the city and simultaneously appease their Soviet Keeper who was under increasing pressure from the US, British and French to address the matter. The solution was simple. A name change.

So Matteo, in that respect you are 100% right. And I'm in total agreement with you. But in the military, you don't just change names with respect to units that have been issued "Colors" (Regimental Flags). You yourself posted a black and white photo of the new Wachregiment ceremoniously uncasing their new "Colors" (Regimental Flag). This in fact is an official act with respect to creation of a new unit.

I'm sure somewhere there are pictures (perhaps in private hands) of the former NVA-Wachregiment retiring its "Colors" (Regimental Flag).

Believe me. Even though the personnel of which these two units were comprised never changed, there was much more involved behind the scenes than a simple name change. There was a lot of official paperwork that was part of the process, especially when one considers what one of the principal driving forces behind this was.

We may not ever agree on the terms deactivation and activation, and perhaps its a case of Semantics, and we agree in principal. I hope that to be the case - especially since we both share the same fascination and interest in these very unique Regiments.

And if nothing else, at least I provided some information with respect to the other question you posed, that being NVA-Wachregiment 2.

I for one will at this juncture stop. I think it can be agreed that as far as is known, the regiments addressed above are the ones that existed. I know of no others. And of interest, they all were in one way or another either in Berlin or in close proximity to Berlin, which I find in and of itself to be very interesting, if not curious.

Lets hope the book gets published. Matteo, I tell you what. If it does, and knowing how keen you are on the Wachregiments, I would very much be honored if you would permit me the opportunity to acquire your copy for you.

Cheers.

[iannima]

Thank you Michael, It is a lot clearer what you meant. Thank you for your offer of the bok but the truth is that that book appeared on the catalogues of a Berlin Bookseller ages ago as not yet printed but forthcoming. I immediately placed an order for it as I was allowed to, but as you know... nothing happened...
It was you who told me that the contract with the publisher had been rescinded. Are you in contact with the author or something? Is there any way we can find out at what stage in the process they are?
WE NEED THAT BOOK!!