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what happened in 1990?

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    #16
    From Zilian Pg 122 =

    DECISION 8: NO TRANSFER OF NVA TRADITION

    In this area of personnel management and administration, the final decision examined is the one by the MOD not to allow any NVA tradition to be taken over into the Bundeswehr. Shortly after Unification, Dr. Stoltenberg explained that "Unity assumed reconciliation" [Einheit setzt Versohnung vorraus].
    Reconciliation does not mean to simply gloss over the problems stemming from the different traditions of the German armed forces in the east and west. The task is to work together on these in a convincing manner [uberzeugend] ."

    Tradition in the NV A has been described as adhering to:

    the view of the East German Communist party in its historical role in the revolutionary struggle of the Geman working class under the leadership of its revolutionary party.

    Correspondingly the NVA and the Border Troops should be "those who continue the revolutionary and progressive traditions and those bearers of the socialistic military tradition.


    The decision not to allow the transfer of any NVA traditions had its roots in State Secretary Karl-Heinz Carl's decision that on October 3, 1990, the identity of NVA would vanish: "On October 3, one Bundeswehr."196 BG Andreas Wittenberg added that at the end of September 1990, Admiral Wellershof, the Bundeswehr Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, indicated that NVA traditions would not be perpetuated. "The NVA is history," said Wittenberg, explaining the psychological and ideological rationale. The former NVA would be able to look back at the NVA and recognize that there was a better way, "a way that honors human dignity." He indicated that they had already realized: "We have been deceived by the leadership of the GDR."

    The issue of a valid tradition for the Bundeswehr itself has been, since the Bundeswehr's establishment, a contentious one, as discussed elsewhere. It was to be expected that Bundeswehr leaders would take a very close and critical look at the assimilation of any traditions of an Army that, although composed of ethnic brothers, was based on a fundamentally opposed belief system, one that did not-at least in Bundeswehr eyes-respect human dignity. It is not surprising then that as the founders of the Bundeswehr realized in the 1950's that a fundamental break with the past was necessaaary, so too a catagorical break with the past was also imperative for former NVA, a break in part embodied in this decision on tradition. It was this psychological-ideological factor that most explains this decision...

    First Lieutenant Dietrnar Korn expanded on the rationale for the decision. First, on a military-organizational level, the German Army was moving to AS 5 and the former qualifications of the individual-presumably reflected by the badges on his uniform-might not be needed. Second, and more significantly, the NVA possessed a totally different value system, a different ideology. "It was a totally contrary ideology. He cannot walk around wearing these badges." German Army regulations dictated that badges could be worn. Former NVA could apply to wear a certain badge, as he himself had applied to wear US Army marksmanship badges. For example, if a former NVA had an East German parachutist badge, he would be able to wear the German Army badge after a brief training period.

    The specifics for the implementation of this decision were detailed by a Joint Staff directive on September 25, 1990. This explained that with the takeover of command authority by MOD on October 3, 1990, all regulations, decrees, and directives of the FRG would now apply to the joined area. In the takeover of the units on October 3, no GDR or NVA flags would be hoisted or lowered. All NVA unit colors and documents were to be sent to the Military History Museum
    in Dresden. As directed in the order of the MDD (GDR), the national markings and names of the military equipment were to be removed by October 2, and they were to be marked "Bundeswehr." All GDR, NVA, or Warsaw Pact medals and awards were not to be worn or displayed.

    On the NVA side the basics of these changes had been disseminated to the NVA four days prior to Unification by the MOD in Command Number 48/90. It directed that all unit colors, streamers (Fohnenschleifen), orders of the day, documents that conferred names of facilities and garrison signs were to be sent to the Military History Museum in Dresden by October 20. Nationality markings and names were to be removed from equipment, buildings and facilities by October 2.

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      #17
      Originally posted by ehrentitle
      From Zilian Pg 146 -

      A second supplementry but still significant decision in this area was the Bundeswehr's decision not to recognize any previous military or academic training that a former NVA may have undergone before Unification. Not suprisingly, this decision came under harsh criticism by selected NVA, as might be expected mostly from those who had received significant training and education while in the NVA....One officer in Leipzig, CPT Reiner Moeller, had received an engieering degree for the Soviet Academy in Leningrad. This along with his courses in the NVA, had not been officially recognized by the Bundeswehr.
      may not have been recognised by the Bundeswehr, but they were still mostly recognised in Civilian Life, which is why most officers left the Bundeswehr again very quickly, even if they had been integrated initially and I know a lot of former NVA officers, who now have very successful civilian careers.... Cheers, Torsten.

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        #18
        The specifics for the implementation of this decision were detailed by a Joint Staff directive on September 25, 1990. This explained that with the takeover of command authority by MOD on October 3, 1990, all regulations, decrees, and directives of the FRG would now apply to the joined area. In the takeover of the units on October 3, no GDR or NVA flags would be hoisted or lowered. All NVA unit colors and documents were to be sent to the Military History Museum
        in Dresden. As directed in the order of the MDD (GDR), the national markings and names of the military equipment were to be removed by October 2, and they were to be marked "Bundeswehr." All GDR, NVA, or Warsaw Pact medals and awards were not to be worn or displayed.


        This the kind of thing That would have drove me personally not to have served in the unified Army after 3 october. I would have told them to go to hell.
        Even the lowest private is proud of his unit and flag. What the hell were they thinking???
        But the wearing of third reich awards is ok (57 version) so a National Socialist Army award is ok....But not a Socalist Army one. Some body want to help me out here. My respect for Torsten and Dirk go up post by post. I have an idea why they have left the lands that were once theirs. Well enough of my being on my soap box
        Thanks for letting me ramble..
        Cheers!
        Michael



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          #19
          Originally posted by ritterkreuz1945
          ]


          This the kind of thing That would have drove me personally not to have served in the unified Army after 3 october. I would have told them to go to hell.
          Even the lowest private is proud of his unit and flag. What the hell were they thinking???
          But the wearing of third reich awards is ok (57 version) so a National Socialist Army award is ok....But not a Socalist Army one. Some body want to help me out here. My respect for Torsten and Dirk go up post by post. I have an idea why they have left the lands that were once theirs. Well enough of my being on my soap box
          Thanks for letting me ramble..
          Cheers!
          Michael


          From my undestanding it's not the diffrent values of the NVA (as you mention TR awards are allowed to be worn) but the fact that the BRD allways saw itself as the only heir to the TR and saw the DDR as an illegal state.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by ritterkreuz1945
            . My respect for Torsten and Dirk go up post by post. I have an idea why they have left the lands that were once theirs. ]
            my reason for moving to the UK had nothing to do with the political system, but I got engaged to my English teacher while at civilian university in East Germany after I had left the army and I ended up living with her in Glasgow for 3 1/2 years. I had never planned to leave Germany...it just kind of happened.... Cheers, Torsten.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Ingsoc
              From my undestanding it's not the diffrent values of the NVA (as you mention TR awards are allowed to be worn) but the fact that the BRD allways saw itself as the only heir to the TR and saw the DDR as an illegal state.
              I think by that you mean to say that the BRD saw itself as the only true Germany, as they would not have wanted to claim any relationship with the Third Reich any way . But that was obviosly true of the DDR too, the only difference being that the DDR existence was effectively dependent on the cold war and the wall. Once these had gone the existence of the DDR had no justification.

              We have obviously touched upon extremely complex issues that can be seen from many different sides, with wildly opposite conclusions.
              I would just want to add one dimension we, non Germans, (but Germanophiles nonetheless ) tend to disregard and it is the domestic, i.e. West German position of the Bundeswehr. This had been subjected to severe shocks with the passing of the wartime generation and the advent of those who are elsewhere called the "babyboomers".
              The 1968 student protests have had in most European countries a profound social impact that is often not fully understood in the Anglosaxon world which has been subjected to this social and generational upheaval to a far lesser extent.
              This generation came to question in the 1970s, both what their fathers had actually done during the Third Reich, an embarassing topic of conversation at the best of times, AND their subsequent alliance with the United States which was seen to behave illiberally and imperialistically in Vietnam and in many other places in the world. Despite the subsequently proven support by the Stasi, it must be borne in mind that terrorist groups like the Rote Armee Fraktion had been generated within western societies, and reflected western societies' cultures BEFORE their being recognised and fostered as useful instruments in the cold war by the Soviet Union and her allies. Whilst the ones who actually became terrorists were only few, the number of those who felt very similarly or sympathetically is far, far greater.
              To this, or because of this, I might add that Germany had gone from being the most militaristic nation of Europe at the beginnig of the XX century to being one of the most vocally antimilitaristic ones.
              The Bundeswehr in all this could only be left stranded across this new division in West German society: a staunch ally of the United States, an obviously military organisation perpetually subjected to civilian scrutiny and malevolent ( and prejudiced) accusations of militarism, and a conscript army too, which meant thousands of people being in its ranks not out of choice...
              It is small wonder then that the acceptance of traditions and customs that were either traditionally Prussian (and therefore stank of militarism), or were tainted with the socialist enemy ideology, simply could not be contemplated by the hierarchy of the Bundeswehr.
              To this you add the traditional German inability to see things in anything but black and white terms, and it was quite obvious that the NVA did not stand a chance of being recognised and honoured for what it had done: it HAD NOT taken arms against its own people...
              Not exactly a small achievement in German history...

              Comment


                #22
                Thanx for respect Mike-Ritterkreuz1945. But iIĀ“m still living in germany-only deeper in the West than before...
                Today sometimes I wish I had leave Germany like Dag or Torsten...

                Mike, I wouldnĀ“t leave the army not NVA nor Bundeswehr. I served from the 3th october 1990 to 31th March 1991 in Bundeswehr with same rank as NVA.
                But after that my AR-11 has been cancelled and all weapons gone to Hungary (if I remeber right). And the Bundeswehr doesnĀ“t need so many officers and other soldiers, as the NVA had...
                And so it was FINITO with wearing uniform and "having fun" in the fields by shooting and so on...

                Today our status in law was: "served in foreign military forces". Normally one is "reserve of Bundeswehr" if he weared the uniform only one day!

                AR-11, Dirk

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                  #23
                  Today our status in law was: "served in foreign military forces". Normally one is "reserve of Bundeswehr" if he weared the uniform only one day!

                  My friend Dirk has brought up a point I didn't even know about. Why would the FDR list you as that? I mean you served as a officier for a couple of years in the BW, I don't get it. Oh Dirk, What were your observations of the BW while you served? Thanks for the great answers in this thread so far!!!!
                  Michael

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by AR-11
                    But after that my AR-11 has been cancelled and all weapons gone to Hungary (if I remeber right).

                    AR-11, Dirk
                    Interesting, I did an tour in Hungary support operations in Bosnia back in 1998. We had over a hundred civilian Hungarian depot level mechanics working for us repairing US vehicles in a deal coordinated by the Hungarian MoD. I took a couple of trips to the Hungarian tank repair facility that they normally worked at. It had acres and acres of armored vehicles of all types (T-55 & T-72?, BMP, BRDM, BTR, etc.) . Many had come from other former Warsaw Pact countries as payment of various debts. Can't remember if East Germany was one of them. I have several photos, I'll post a couple.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Excellent thread guys, really good stuff!

                      We've probably talked about it before, but I really cannot imagine what it must have been like for someone who grew up in the DDR for it all to suddenly end like that.

                      I mean, its not like the end of the Third Reich, the DDR went without a struggle, just sort of suddenly fizzled out when the Soviets tried their own rebranding of Socialism (and failed miserably).

                      As for you guys in the NVA, for your "enemy" to decide whether to give you a job and dictate that even your military traditions are rubbish (let alone your State and beliefs) well, thats really nasty. Even conquering armies normally grant more favours than that.

                      Very sad.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        i have been following and reading all comments in this thread,with avid interest.
                        to actually read memories and experiences of actual nva members as and when the " untergang" happened is a very unique experience for me.

                        i always like to read/hear about people's experience's as and when events happen.torstens thread "would you have liked to live in the ddr".was a superb example.

                        but what i would like to ask the ex-nva members is this..bearing in mind alot of east germans had relatives in the west.

                        if given the order to attack the west. ie west germany (europe)
                        would you follow the order through with out hesitation?

                        was the party stranglehold on the population that severe? ie the west is corrupt etc?

                        i would like to hear ALL your thoughts..this kind of thread is what brings this forum and collecting ddr alive..

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by 3x3cut3d
                          but what i would like to ask the ex-nva members is this..bearing in mind alot of east germans had relatives in the west.

                          if given the order to attack the west. ie west germany (europe)
                          would you follow the order through with out hesitation?

                          was the party stranglehold on the population that severe? ie the west is corrupt etc?
                          everyone will have their own answers to this one...and to be politically correct and to not offend anyone, my answer would of course have to be: absolutely no way...I would have never participated in that and I would have gladly been stood up against the wall and been shot for cowardice or not obeying orders or whatever...but, the honest answer is: I don't know what I would have done and it would have depended in the circumstances of when and why the order was given, but I would likely have participated as I suspect pretty much everyone else would have...but then again, I do not think that tactics of the Warscaw Pact really had plans for the DDR to attack the BRD (although, I do know that there were some war scenarios played through that analysed that option), but I do think that in the case of an attack of Warscaw Pact on the NATO (as much as I think that that would never have happened under any circumstances) I think that the role of attacking the BRD would have fallen on other Warscaw Pact armies and not the NVA for precisely the reasons you have already stated...we were still German, although I would still call myself East German rather than just German and my loyalties do lie with East Germany and certainly not with West Germany and because of the direct family relations between the East and the West, etc...but, like I said at the start of my post...everyone will have their own answers to this question...Cheers, Torsten.
                          Last edited by torstenbel; 05-03-2006, 05:45 PM.

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                            #28
                            "we were still German, although I would still call myself East German rather than just German and my loyalties do lie with East Germany and certainly not with West Germany and because of the direct family relations "







                            As well you should...I have met people from my part of the country that still refer to themselves as being Confederate citizens living in a military occupied land. lol But I have read accounts of former Southern officer's still referring to themselves in their old capacity in the Southern army .

                            Cheers,
                            Michael

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by ehrentitle
                              . Can't remember if East Germany was one of them. I have several photos, I'll post a couple.
                              My weapon was the self propelled howitzer 2S3M "Acaciya"-sorry, I donĀ“t know the NATO-term... We put off everything that mentioned on NVA. And than we ride them on a train. The Hungarian Peoples Army should have been the adress, but nobody told us officially. At my homepage is pic, that shows hungarians with an ex NVA-2S3M...

                              AR-11

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                                #30
                                Most interesting Genossen, thank you for the insight...

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