Announcement

**Mike G.** · 05-30-2005, 10:54 AM

Hi Torsten,

I would give it a little longer. A lot of people are out and away due to this being "Memorial Day" weekend. Could be someone out there upon there return home, might surprise us. Hopefully, a little research in the right place will reveal the answers.

**torstenbel** · 05-30-2005, 11:15 AM

Michael, its holiday Monday in the UK today as well...but for different reasons...maybe another hint: When composing these questions, I first formulated the questions and then I went about finding the answers on the internet and it took me about 2 mins to get them...

Cheers, Torsten.

Originally posted by Michael D. Gallagher

Hi Torsten,

I would give it a little longer. A lot of people are out and away due to this being "Memorial Day" weekend. Could be someone out there upon there return home, might surprise us. Hopefully, a little research in the right place will reveal the answers.

**Mike G.** · 05-30-2005, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by torstenbel

Michael, its holiday Monday in the UK today as well...but for different reasons...maybe another hint: When composing these questions, I first formulated the questions and then I went about finding the answers on the internet and it took me about 2 mins to get them...

Cheers, Torsten.

Well, its been 2 hours + 58 minutes.

My internet sucks.

**torstenbel** · 05-30-2005, 12:32 PM

I am sure that you are using the same search engine, but maybe not the same language??

and I don't mean Russian...

Cheers, Torsten.

Originally posted by Michael D. Gallagher

Well, its been 2 minutes + 58 minutes.

My internet sucks.

**AR-11** · 05-30-2005, 01:03 PM

Good evening Gents,

I want to answer question 3 with the number of 390.000 political prisoners , inclusive: 190.000 killed people and aprox 34.000 (witch were "sold" to FRG for aprox. 3,4 Mrd. D-Mark)...
AR-11

**AR-11** · 05-30-2005, 01:15 PM

Question 2: all in all the Stasi had 17 "Untersuchungshaftanstalten". The "hardest" are already named by Michael. I personally know the "Haftanstalt" in Halle /S., called by the people "Roter Ochse" ("red ox"). I know it not from inside, but it is on the way, when you want to visit the "botanic garden".
Both (garden and "ox") are located in the center of the city Halle!
AR-11

**torstenbel** · 05-30-2005, 04:58 PM

Dirk, does not tie in at all with my source, which I would believe to be correct...wow...190,000 killed in DDR jails between 1949 and 1989?? Are you sure? That is a huge number...ok, then I will answer question number 3: a total of 180,000 people spent time in DDR jails for political reasons between 1949 and 1989.

But, you are almost spot on with the number of Stasi run jails. YOu say 17 and according to my source there were 16. According to my source, there were a total of 44 jails and 33 detention centres (U-Haft) in the DDR.

And of course, I will have to reveal my source for this. It is the website of the rather wellknown German author and journalist Georg Praschl: http://www.praschl.net/18.0.html

Some of you might have his books???

I have got the feeling, that there will still be some controversy coming on the answers and I am ready for it...

I think that this little round has been going long enough and since Dirk got at least one fo the questions spot on...over to you Dirk and Rohr Frei!...

Cheers, Torsten.

PS: Dirk, erinnerst Du Dich noch an 'Die Quelle' in Zittau?

Originally posted by AR-11

Good evening Gents,

I want to answer question 3 with the number of 390.000 political prisoners , inclusive: 190.000 killed people and aprox 34.000 (witch were "sold" to FRG for aprox. 3,4 Mrd. D-Mark)...
AR-11

**Mike G.** · 05-30-2005, 07:21 PM

Hi Torsten,

I think Dirk and I were kind of looking at the same information. The source I used indicated between 1945 and 1989 some 280,000 "Political" prisoners were interned in the Soviet Occupation Zone (GDR). In 1978 alone for example, 1,653 people were imprisoned for political reasons.

Here is how that number was broken down:

1,653:
627 - failed attempted border crossings.
221 - "Criminal" offences against the State
206 - Contacts with entities deemed hostile to the State
151 - guilty of propaganda hostile to the State
103 - Aiding people in attempts to cross the border
22 - Espionage against the State
8 - Sabotage
4 - Crimes against Humanity (These were unfortunates found to in
some way have a past Nazi or Fascist connection).

Also, I too found there to be 17 isolation camps. However, my source indicates by 1988 this was the planned or proposed number, not the actual completed number. Also, of that proposed number, not all were to be prisons. Some were to be boarding schools and youth hostiles run by the Stasi. So I did not count the entire 17, as some were not completed, and others were not actual prisons.

My source you might ask?

Jens GIESEKE who authored the book, "The GDR State Security, Shield and Sword of the Party". He was by the way, appointed Authority of the Federal Commissioner for the Stasi Records. One of his first jobs was to translate Stasi Records.

I don't think there is any controversy Torsten. These areas, are always in dispute and hard numbers will always be in question.

For example, I know four different sites/ sources that all claim to be the expert, regarding the total number of people killed between 61 and 89 attempting to cross the Berlin Wall, and attempting to cross the East German/West German Frontier Wall. All 4 sources have similar numbers, but none of the 4 sources agree on the exact numbers.

Same thing with the Wall. I know of one source that suggests there were three different types of Wall used between 61 and 89, with a 4th planned and even produced, but never actually used because the end came. Another Source suggests 4 different types of wall were produced and used between 61 and 89, with a 5th type made but never used.

Who is to say which source is correct? Some of this is very speculative. It is one of the things that can be frustrating about studying East German History. I partly blame the Former West German government for much of this, and to some degree, the East German People. When everything fell apart in 89, both sides, West and East wanted to put the East behind them.

Now, there is a desire to know about life in East Germany betwee 49 and 89, and much of the history has been destroyed or forgotten. People have ideas, but when it comes to exact numbers, no one seems to know for certain.

I really wish a bunch of university students wanting to do a "Master's Thesis", would get together, and go to the Former East Germany for a year, and attempt to put together as best as possible, the history of that country between 49 and 89. If someone doesn't do it, before too long it will be too late, and it will be impossible.

Torsten,
I found your questions thought provoking and interesting. And they made me hit the books, read and do research. So for me your questions were very good. And I do not dispute your answers. As I already said, there are different sources with different numbers. One is not necessarily more correct than the other. When all is said and done, every one of them might be off by a few numbers. Who knows?

Thank you for an interesting Post.

**Mike G.** · 05-30-2005, 07:35 PM

Hi Dirk,

Congratulations.

We now await another opportunity to scratch our heads and hit the internet and for those of us that have them, books.

**Soviet** · 05-30-2005, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by AR-11

inclusive: 190.000 killed people ...

Were these people killed in prison ?

**torstenbel** · 05-31-2005, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Michael D. Gallagher

Hi Torsten,

I think Dirk and I were kind of looking at the same information. The source I used indicated between 1945 and 1989 some 280,000 "Political" prisoners were interned in the Soviet Occupation Zone (GDR). In 1978 alone for example, 1,653 people were imprisoned for political reasons.

Michael, thank you for the additional info...very interesting..have a look again at my source...if you add in the numbers of people held in prison by the Soviets in the DDR from 1945 to 1949 and add these to the 180,000 people kept in prison during the DDR days from 1949 to 1989, then the number is close to the one you state for between 1945 and 1989...but, my question was about the numbers from 1949 to 1989, thus not including what the Soviets did in 1945 to 1949...

Cheers, Torsten.

**AR-11** · 05-31-2005, 10:32 AM

Torsten and all,

of course I´m NOT sure about my informations. I read it on a site of the TV-channel "Arte". But it´s a really serious channel-and in cooperation with France. So I thinks it´s recherches were not too false...

Ja klar kenne ich die Quelle noch. UND ich weiß sogar, was Rainer heute macht: er hat ein Hotel in Jonsdorf! Ich habe es vor 2 Jahren zu Oastern besucht-er war leider selber nicht da (aber ich glaube, er hätte mich sowieso nicht erkannt...). Die Quelle selber gibt´s ja nicht mehr-da steht ein Parkhaus oder sowas drauf und ein Einkaufszentrum (weiß aber nicht mehr so genau...).

Ciao, Dirk.

**Ralph P** · 05-31-2005, 02:07 PM

Hey Dirk...I can for sure agree with you that ARTE is a serious channel in Germany.

Torsten...Very good round and very difficult questions to find the information too. Thanks Dirk and Mike...for coming up with the answers.

Originally posted by AR-11

Torsten and al,

of course I´m NOT sure about my informations. I read it on a site of the TV-channel "Arte". But it´s a really serious channel-and in cooperation with France. So I thinks it´s recherches were not too false...

Ja klar kenne ich die Quelle noch. UND ich weiß sogar, was Rainer heute macht: er hat ein Hotel in Olbersdorf! Ich habe es vor 2 Jahren zu Oastern besucht-er war leider selber nicht da (aber ich glaube, er hätte mich sowieso nicht erkannt...). Die Quelle selber gibt´s ja nicht mehr-da steht ein Parkhaus oder sowas drauf und ein Einkaufszentrum (weiß aber nicht mehr so genau...).

Ciao, Dirk.

**AR-11** · 05-31-2005, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Ralph Pickard

Hey Dirk...I can for sure agree with you that ARTE is a serious channel in Germany.

Hey Ralph,
I have been surprised at the fact that you know the ARTE-channel?!

Can you recieve it in USA too (via satellite, maybe??)

AR-11

**AR-11** · 05-31-2005, 03:00 PM

Okay. It´s again a real "cold war"-question. But not focussed allone at my "favourite subjects" STASI or secret services...

In the city BURG near Magdeburg, there was located a special radio-station.
It´s radio-shows were sent 3 times per day.

1. Whats was the name of this sender?
2. What was it´s principal purpose?
3. When stopps it´s work? (year)

Good luck to all. I hope it´s not too difficult.

AR-11

Announcement

Cold War in Europe trivia thread...

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread