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    #151
    I don't know the answers, but here is what I think is going on.

    The guy on the chair is about ready to be finished with his conscription time. He is the senior one.

    The guy with the single candle on his helmet is the "Newbie". So it is his requirement as the new guy, to "Cut the Ties" to the Military of the other guy that is finished with his service requirement.

    I'm guessing of course.

    Anyway - fantastic photo Soviet.

    Can't wait to here what is really going on.
    Michael D. GALLAGHER

    M60-A2 Tank Commander Cold War proverb: “You can accomplish more with a kind word and a ‘Shillelagh’ than you can with just a kind word.”

    Comment

      #152
      You are right Michael the guy with the candel on the Stahlhelm is a recruit. The only thing is that I am not sure if the one on the chair is finished with is Wehrdienst. Maybe Torsten will explain it better when all the questions will be answered.

      So the question #2 that wasn't really good formulated is presumely answered in saying that the "Newbie" (the recruit) is cuting the band and the guy on the chair is not a recruit.

      Question #1 is incomplete but on the good way.

      Just for your information, the picture showed was taken in Neubrandenburg in 1977, so I presume that ritual was longly maintained.

      Comment

        #153
        Hi Mike and Soviet...everything you have said so far is correct of course, but there is still a little more to it in regard to the 'helmet bombing'...and there are still plenty of other questions to be answered anyhow...but I am sure that someone will still come up with better suggestions on what is going on...actually, I would much rather hear AR-11 (Dirk)'s explanation of it...I never served out with the troops and at the Officer Academy we never did do these things...but Dirk will have 'first hand' experience from his time out in the field...of course Dag would also know much better what is going here....keep going... Cheers, Torsten.

        Originally posted by Michael D. Gallagher
        I don't know the answers, but here is what I think is going on.

        The guy on the chair is about ready to be finished with his conscription time. He is the senior one.

        The guy with the single candle on his helmet is the "Newbie". So it is his requirement as the new guy, to "Cut the Ties" to the Military of the other guy that is finished with his service requirement.

        I'm guessing of course.

        Anyway - fantastic photo Soviet.

        Can't wait to here what is really going on.
        Last edited by torstenbel; 05-11-2005, 09:14 AM.

        Comment

          #154
          What a great pic!!!

          Shall I really already answer all the questions? I can´t believe that! BTW we see some striktly forbidden things:
          1. making a photo inside a NVA-kaserne,
          2. having a "tie" as you said, we called it "Bandm..."(I think it means the same)
          3. the "EK"-movement,
          4. having open fire inside a soldiers-room,
          5. discriminating of a "young" soldier by a "senior"-soldier...

          should be enough for the moment

          The questions 3 to 5 should be easy for NVA-fans, like you were here in the forum. Or not????

          AR-11

          Comment

            #155
            Ok guys, I know this is a though one because I didn't know the answer before I did my research. Look for something called : "Maßband" on Internet. You might find something. "Der erste Anschnitt des Maßbandes"

            Question #3,4 & 5 are easy to fnd I think.

            Comment

              #156
              yep, plenty of disciplinary problems are evident in this pic... but please don't answer it quite yet Dirk...I would really like to see some more of the others try and interpret the 'meaning' of what is going on here.., but most importantly the significance of the ceremonies... and lets not forget, this was usually all just a bit of fun for everyone involved... usually no-one was mistreated during those little 'illegal' ceremonies...Dirk! when this is all finished, we can tell them about some other favourite NVA Kasernen Activities, like Staubsauger, Music Box, Schildkroete, etc...I am sure you know them Dirk??...Cheers, Torsten.

              PS: Btw, Massband in English is a measuring tape, which is what the recruit is cutting here...

              Originally posted by AR-11
              What a great pic!!!
              Shall I really already answer all the questions? I can´t believe that! BTW we see some striktly forbidden things:
              1. making a photo inside a NVA-kaserne,
              2. having a "tie" as you said, we called it "Bandm..."(I think it means the same)
              3. the "EK"-movement,
              4. having open fire inside a soldiers-room,
              5. discriminating of a "young" soldier by a "senior"-soldier...

              should be enough for the moment

              The questions 3 to 5 should be easy for NVA-fans, like you were here in the forum. Or not????

              AR-11
              Last edited by torstenbel; 05-11-2005, 02:25 PM.

              Comment

                #157
                Ok..did a little research and I'll try it

                to:
                #1 this ritual was used and celebrated to count the days during the service until the end of the service.The Uffz. (EK) is holding the measuring tape and the new recruit,starter or new room-member ("Sprutz") does the first or last cut of of the measuring tape.The "Sprutz" is always the one with the Candle on the helmet.

                #2 on the left probably Uffz. or normal soldier who finished his time in the army and the Candle boy is just starting military service.

                #3 introduced January,24th 1962 and came into Force Jan.14th 1966

                #4 Basic-military-service = 18 month ;

                Offz.orUffz. Cadets = 3 years(after 18month basic service) ...and Career soldiers(Berufssoldaten) = 12 years(after 18month basic service) ..
                (Note: Dates are based on the first version of the constitution of the DDR about Wehrdienst 1962 this changed when the law came into force 1966)

                #5 ("wehrpflichtig")between 18 - 26..for those who denied the military service on purpose(Kriegsdienstverweigerer) or left the service without permission the age limit was the Dec.31th before the 36th Birthday

                and here is another nice pic of the ritual
                Last edited by Thälmannpionier; 05-11-2005, 07:51 PM.

                Comment

                  #158
                  wow...another pic... just a small correction, Berufsoffizier was 25 years, there was no service that lastet 12 years (at least not towards the end), Berufsunteroffizier was 10 years and Faehnrich was 15 years and OAZ (Offizier auf Zeit) was 4 years and now we have all of the NVA carreer options complete.. over to Soviet to confirm the rest...or not Cheers, Torsten.

                  Originally posted by Thälmannpionier
                  Ok..did a little research and I'll try it

                  to:
                  #1 this ritual was used and celebrated to count the days during the service until the end of the service.The Uffz. (EK) is holding the measurement tape and the new recruit,starter or new room-member ("Sprutz") does the first or last cut of of the measurement tape.The "Sprutz" is always the one with the Candle on the helmet.

                  #2 on the left probably Uffz. and the Candle boy is just starting military service.

                  #3 introduced January,24th 1962 and came into Force Jan.14th 1966

                  #4 Basic-military-service = 18 month ; Offz.orUffz. Cadets = 3 years on voluntarily basis...and Career soldiers(Berufssoldaten) = 12 years on voluntarily basis

                  #5 ("wehrpflichtig")between 18 - 26..for those who denied the military service on purpose(Kriegsdienstverweigerer) or left the service without permission the age limit was 35.

                  and here is another nice pic of the ritual

                  Comment

                    #159
                    Originally posted by torstenbel
                    wow...another pic... just a small correction, Berufsoffizier was 25 years, there was no service that lastet 12 years (at least not towards the end), Berufsunteroffizier was 10 years and Faehnrich was 15 years and OAZ (Offizier auf Zeit) was 4 years and now we have all of the NVA carreer options complete.. over to Soviet to confirm the rest...or not Cheers, Torsten.
                    hi torsten

                    the Informations are from the "Verfassung d. DDR-GBl. I S. 2 §6"

                    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%" colSpan=2>Soldaten auf Zeit sind Soldaten und Unteroffiziere, die sich freiwillig für eine mindestens 3jährige Gesamtdienstzeit verpflichtet haben und durch Befehl bestätigt wurden.


                    (3) Berufssoldaten sind



                    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="3%"></TD><TD width="97%">a) Unteroffiziere, die sich freiwillig für eine mindestens 12jährige Dienstzeit verpflichtet haben und durch Befehl bestätigt wurden;


                    b) alle Offiziersschüler;
                    c) alle Offiziere und Generale im aktiven Wehrdienstverhältnis.

                    </TD></TR><TR><TD width="100%" colSpan=2>
                    (4) Das Dienstverhältnis als Soldat auf Zeit und als Berufssoldat (außer Offiziersschüler, Offiziere und Generale) beginnt nach Ableistung des Grundwehrdienstes.



                    Those dates first apply after you've served 18 month in basic-military-service(Grundwehrdienst)..
                    cheers
                    Andreas

                    P.S. just want to add these dates:
                    Limit Age for one Rank:

                    Hauptmann = 35 years

                    Major = 40 years

                    Oberstleutnant = 45 years

                    Oberst = 50 years

                    Generalmajor onwards = 65 years and women 60 years

                    (for proofed "victims" of the Naziregime the age limit was 5 years less)












                    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
                    Last edited by Thälmannpionier; 05-11-2005, 06:48 PM.

                    Comment

                      #160
                      ok..what date is it? When is it from? As far as I was aware, there was no 12 year army service period at the end of the 1980's...as I said in my previous post, maybe there was before...I don't know? The service period for professional soldiers in the Wehrmacht until 1945 was certainly 12 years and it is well possible that the NVA initially also took this on board and then changed later... no idea but, the service options during my time in the army were as follows: 1 1/2 years national conscription, 3 years Unteroffizier auf Zeit, 4 years Offizier auf Zeit, 10 years Berufsunteroffizier, 15 years Faehnrich and 25 years Berufsoffizier and that was it...Cheers, Torsten.

                      Originally posted by Thälmannpionier
                      hi torsten

                      the Informations are from the "Verfassung d. DDR-GBl. I S. 2 §6"

                      <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%" colSpan=2>Soldaten auf Zeit sind Soldaten und Unteroffiziere, die sich freiwillig für eine mindestens 3jährige Gesamtdienstzeit verpflichtet haben und durch Befehl bestätigt wurden.
                      (3) Berufssoldaten sind

                      </TD></TR><TR><TD width="3%"></TD><TD width="97%">a) Unteroffiziere, die sich freiwillig für eine mindestens 12jährige Dienstzeit verpflichtet haben und durch Befehl bestätigt wurden;
                      b) alle Offiziersschüler;
                      c) alle Offiziere und Generale im aktiven Wehrdienstverhältnis.                      </TD></TR><TR><TD width="100%" colSpan=2>
                      (4) Das Dienstverhältnis als Soldat auf Zeit und als Berufssoldat (außer Offiziersschüler, Offiziere und Generale) beginnt nach Ableistung des Grundwehrdienstes.

                      Those dates first apply after you've served 18 month in basic-military-service(Grundwehrdienst)..
                      cheers
                      Andreas




                      </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

                      Comment

                        #161
                        Originally posted by torstenbel
                        ok..what date is it? When is it from? As far as I was aware, there was no 12 year army service period at the end of the 1980's...as I said in my previous post, maybe there was before.
                        you are correct..I've just checked a later version of constution..my source was probably a kind of early or first version of the constitution.
                        I couldn't find any dates where they made this change
                        cheers
                        Andreas

                        Comment

                          #162
                          Andreas, not sure where you got the info from, but I have just read through the original Dienstlaufbahnordnung der NVA from 1962 (1964), i.e. the original and first version, and this is what I found:

                          § 7
                          Aktive Wehrdienstverhältnisse

                          (1) Wehrpflichtige, die den Grundwehrdienst leisten, sind die männlichen Bürger der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik, die auf Grund der Erfassung bzw. einer freiwilligen Meldung zur Ableistung des im § 21 des Wehrpflichtgesetzes festgelegten aktiven Wehrdienstes einberufen worden sind.
                          (2) Soldaten auf Zeit sind die Soldaten, Unteroffiziersschüler oder Unteroffiziere, die sich freiwillig für eine mindestens dreijährige Gesamtdienstzeit verpflichtet haben und durch Befehl bestätigt wurden.
                          (3) Berufssoldaten sind

                          a) die Soldaten, Unteroffiziersschüler oder Unteroffiziere, die sich freiwillig für eine mindestens zehnjährige Gesamtdienstzeit verpflichtet haben und durch Befehl bestätigt wurden;
                          b) die Offiziersschüler;
                          c) die Offiziere und Generale im aktiven Wehrdienst.
                          (4) Die weiblichen Bürger der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik, die freiwillig aktiven Wehrdienst leisten, gelten als Soldaten auf Zeit oder Berufssoldaten. Die Bestimmungen der Absätze 2 und 3 sind entsprechend anzuwenden.

                          a very interesting document to read by the way...and the ages you stated are the top age limits for the ranks by the way...so, at the age of 40 for example you had to be promoted to Major, if you had not been already...

                          And this is, where you can find the original document: http://www.documentarchiv.de/ddr/196...ienst_erl.html

                          Cheers, Torsten.

                          PS: As far as I am concerned Andreas, you have still answered the questions correctly ...well done...this was only a minor correction that I brought up...but this will need to be confirmed by Soviet before you should proceed to ask a question of your own...as it was his question.
                          Last edited by torstenbel; 05-11-2005, 07:17 PM.

                          Comment

                            #163
                            funny...same Source..I was just reading the constitution from1962 all the Time and didn't read the version from 1966

                            look at §6

                            http://www.documentarchiv.de/ddr/196...ienst_erl.html

                            Comment

                              #164
                              And the winner is … ***drum roll*** … : Thälmannpionier who answered correctly to my questions.<o =""></o>

                              My sources come almost all from the <st1 =""><st1:city w:st="on">"Deutsches Historisches Museum</st1:city> <st1:state w:st="on">Berlin</st1:state></st1>".

                              http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/lebe...onen/3_136.htm<o =""></o>

                              http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/lebe...nen/ddr_11.htm

                              Please Torsten or Dirk, that would be nice if you could explain those little games for the recruits. I guess it will be better explained than me.

                              Thälmannpionier is the next for the questions after we get a nice explanation of those rituals (games). <o =""></o>

                              Comment

                                #165
                                still very interesting to see that they intitally wanted to model the NVA Berufssoldat on the Wehrmacht Berufssoldat at 12 years service or more...a new fact, that I did not know anything else about before this... Cheers, Torsten (ebay id german.militaria).

                                Originally posted by Thälmannpionier
                                funny...same Source..I was just reading the constitution from1962 all the Time and didn't read the version from 1966

                                look at §6

                                http://www.documentarchiv.de/ddr/196...ienst_erl.html

                                Comment

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