Soviet post war Infantry visor hat - East German made

[Soviet]

Well I first posted that thread in the DDR section, but some members had doubt about this cap. So I would like to have your opinion on it please.

Were a lot of these caps made in <st1:country-region w:st="on">East Germany</st1:country-region> for the <st1 ="">Soviet Union</st1> ? And why were they made in <st1:country-region w:st="on">East Germany</st1:country-region> and not in the <st1 ="">Soviet Union</st1> ?
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Note the Cyrillic Berlin "Берлин" written. This is not mine, but I wouldn't say no to grab one like this in the future.

And am I right to say the size is 55 and this cap is dated from 1949 ? Are the letter on the left production numbers ?

By the way, this cap is being sold at 280 EUR. Is that fair ?

The related post : http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...ad.php?t=96179

[Kozlov]

Have a look here for some guidance:

http://www.undertheredstar.com/fakes.htm

[Wesley's Dad]

Soviet Hat

Soviet,


The hat in question is genuine in my opinion. not only is it made in Berlin, but by Robert Lubstein, a very prolific maker of high quality hats during the Third Reich. Igor at CollectRussia. com has a very similar hat on his site presently for the armor/arty. branch that is identical on the inside for $295.00

Why made in Germany and not the Soviet Union? I offer that first, the Soviets were quick to make retribution laborers out of the German companies that profited from waging war on Russian and often by using Soviet POWs as forced labor as part of that effort. Turning around and being forced to make material for your conquerer is rather insulting don't your think? Second, the Soviet factories could hardly supply the swollen Red Army at the time the war was coming to a close. German factories were quickly turned to facilitate their new controllers needs.

German made WW2 "type" uniform items are quite common actually. In my own collection, I have a Pilotka made from German tunic materials, a very well made Gymnastiorka that even has shoulder board piping made from German Easter Front medal ribbon. Additionally, I have a leather officers belt and Nagant holster made by a Dresden leather factory.

Regards,
Mike

[Soviet]

Thanks Mike for your answer. I also think that this cap is genuine and it is not a fake or a repro. I guess I was just curious about the fact why are they so rare. I just find this is an interesting piece.

Kozlov, I think you should look the quality of that cap and compare it with the one listed in the webpage you refer to me. The quality of this one and the repro are much more different to my eyes.

It just seemed unusual for me to see a WWII patern cap made almost the same way after the war but this time in East Germany.

[Mike G.]

It would be of interest to me to know the date of manufacture of this particular hat. I have no issue with the fact it is made of German materials or produced in Germany (Berlin). However, I find it curious that the hat appears to be in appearance of immediate post war production. Plastic was not yet a product in use at this time. The handle used for the first production Fallschirmjager Daggers for example were of Bakelite. The bills of the East German Visor hats in production in 49 through about 60 were made of vulcanized fibre that was then laquered. Yet this hat appears to have both a plastic chin strap and plastic bill.

Just an observation. The actual date of production I think might better explain.

[Sturmpnr]

Mike,

if you also notice the chinstrap buttons (particular the backings) they are very similar if not identical to the buttons on a few of the early postwar Russian Tanker M43 Tunics that were made in Germany. I think you have one of these in your collection.

Thomas

[Wesley's Dad]

Hat Materials

By the stamp, the hat is as described initially, made in 1949. While looking like plastic, the shiny chinstrap material is a fairly typical composite found on many Soviet hats both wartime and early postwar. The curl developing on the chinstrap at the buttons is a typical trait of this material over time. Likewise, I think the visor is similar in material, just very unused and still retaining much of it's original lacquer over the composite material. I don't think these items are plastic on this hat, just the materials I described in mint condition. This hat is typical of the RL made hats of the early postwar. As for the rarity, maybe RL made hats in themselves are not so common, but German made Soviet uniform items are not so rare.

Mike

[Soviet]

Here is the small description from the seller :

"Soviet Russian Army post war East German (DDR) made Infantry cap. The cap made by Robert Lubstein - Berlin, the same manufacturer, who made headgear for Third Reich army. Dated 1949 year. The excellent condition and nice quality. Rare. Size 55"

So I guess Mike was right.

[Mike G.]

I'm sold. Sounds like someone has stumbled upon a very rare and very collectible piece of history.

Thanks Mike for the education on the composite material used in construction of these early type Soviet hat straps and bills. Regards to all.

[DougD]

caps

i had an engineering generals uniform where the cap was a RL made one ( M1940). I hated selling it, but I did to Vaugh O ( meybe he will post pics).

German made stuff from the DDR between 1946 and 1950 or so are more common that one might think.

I also had a complete Marshal of the USSR uniform to Konev that was made of German Aif Force Generals materials ( the stamps were still inside the pants). The quality was amazing!

DougD

[Ciaran Byrne]

The cap looks very new on the inside with little wear which is a bit off putting but as far as I know, German stamps are not being faked. However, I have seen caps with German labels on the inside and they are more elaborate than this. I would be cautious on this one.

[Wesley's Dad]

German Made Hate

The cap looks very new on the inside with little wear which is a bit off putting but as far as I know, German stamps are not being faked. However, I have seen caps with German labels on the inside and they are more elaborate than this. I would be cautious on this one.

Maybe the hats you have seen are later made. The mark in the hat posted for review is typically the only mark shown on these early postwar hats made by RL and is 100% correct in my opinion. Again, I point to the hat currently offered by CollectRussia.com for another such hat for comparison. The mark in this hat is virtually if not completly identical to the one in the hat submitted for review. Other RL hats I have handled are marked same as these two. .

Caution is always recommened in this hobby, but there are no major alarm bells on this hat for me personally. Oddly, a lot of the German made stuff on the marked today is in unissued condition simply because it was surplus. As for the German stamps not being reproduced, if that is true it is likely because these postwar items have limited appeal. A German made Soviet visor hat is really not worth any more than a Soviet made one... at least not to my knowlege.

Regards,
Mike

[Mike G.]

I think it is more than just being German made. If as you say, it is good to go, this one was produced in Berlin. To me, that makes it of historic interest, or at the very least, of more interest than a "Run-of-the-mill" German produced Soviet hat. But hey, that's just me. I always equate "Unique" with Berlin. They pounded this into me during "School of Standards".

[Wesley's Dad]

German made hat

Michael,

I understand what you are saying... While I primarily collect the wartime stuff, I do have some of this early postwar German made stuff in my collection. I have it because of the bloody irony it represents and the ultimate conclusion of the war on the Eastern Front. Berlin, I suppose, would be the pinnacle of that irony, and as you say would carry greater historical interest to at least those in the know. I guess my point would be that despite that, there is no economic parallel to that historical interest. From my experience, these RL,Berlin hats are basically priced in line with other postwar Soviet hats. That is the RL,Berlin mark carries no premium really. Who's to say that in the future they will not. These, and hats from other German hat makers tend to be of higher quality than their Soviet made cousins.

Regards,
Mike

[LeeG]

That's a nice looking cap. Good German quality you'd expect from RL. I am sure that many a Soviet occupation officer was keen on exchanging the tatterred old and crudely-made visor cap he dragged half-way across Europe for one of these quality pieces, if only to impress some frauleins.