Will the real NKVD officer please stand up ?

[Bill D.]

Today at a show a Russian dealer showed me several NKVD ID's from the WW II period. I didn't like them. They looked old, but the photos and even ink looked new, despite the wear to the ID folders.

There have been a large number of these floating around for awhile now. Either there is a factory-sized operation cranking them out (well, o.k., a babushka and her grandson), or someone raided am archives somewhere.

Doea anyone have any factual information about these things ?

[Bill D.]

Another.....

[Chuck D.]

Bill,

These are definitely being faked in a big way. A few years back after accumulating several different types (MGB, NKVD, SMERSH, etc.), I noticed that on two of them the same guy appeared (with a totally different name.) Though a considerable number of years had passed between ID's, he hadn't aged a bit!
I discussed this with a fellow Soviet collector who had training in detecting false documents, and ended up sending him all of my ID's for examination. Over 50% were fakes! He reexamined the ones he had after seeing mine, and some in his collection initially thought authentic were also suspect. Some are amateur-ish forgeries, but many are very high quality; aged paper, "period"-looking photos, "worn" covers (buffed to simulate age) etc..

Chuck

[Bill D.]

Hi Chuck...
Are you speaking of Shawn ?
The problem with these things is that I'm not sure anyone has yet determined how to tell fakes from originals. I should note that the two ID's shown here were NOT the ones that I saw at the show. To me, the ID's that I posted here look pretty good, at least from the scans that I was sent. However, the two that I saw at the show were similiarly worn i appearance, except that the photographs seemed new, shiny, and looked rcently applied to me. also, the inks on the ones that I saw just didn't look 60 years old.
I'm sure that there has got to be a way to make at least a pretty god judgment call about the age of photos, inks and paper from a hands-on examination. I have been thinking about tracking down a forensic documents expert, one of the fellows who is former FBI for example, to see if I can get some pointers, maybe even pay him to examine a few of these for the educatio of the collecting community.

[DougD]

ID's

These ID's are very widely faked; I avioid dealing in them. Caza is the best authority on NKVD paper, no question.

DougD

[Chuck D.]

Hi Bill,

Yes, I was referring to Shawn. I agree with DougD's assessment about him being an authority on the ID's (as well as other Soviet docs).He has spent many hours going over a large "pool" of them gathered by several Soviet collectors, and has a real good understanding of what is real and what isn't.

Chuck

[NavyFCO]

I can't help much with the authenticity of the other documents, or even how to tell them apart (my forte is in the cloth world) but here's one that I know is 100% righteous out of a group I have for comparison purposes...

--Dave

[NavyFCO]

And the cover...

[desantnik]

These state security documents are widely faked. There is a dealer in Kiev that has an entire table of nothing but fake documents. Quite an education process to peruse what's there.

[Bill D.]

Dave...
Thanks very much for the scans of an original.
That is great to see.
I think that we all have been aware that these ID documents have been faked extensively. However, like anything else that has been faked extensively, such as SS cufftitles and Knights Crosses, there must be some methods of determining originality, or at least getting some good "rules of thumb".
As I posted previously, I'm going to see if I can confer with someone who has examined documents for a living, to se if we can equip oueselves with some information.

[Albert]

Hello Gentlemen,

Speaking of Kiev. 1997 was the last time I stayed there. I plan to go there this summer. What is it like today? Any worthwhile collector activities? Any recommendable dealers / collectors?

Best regards,
Albert

[dannybou]

Not an expert on documents, but would the use of a black light assist in determining fakes from originals?

[desantnik]

I have seen many good and bad. Although my advice is unscientific and not what you're looking for, I would have to say a lot depends on just "knowing" or "feeling" the document in question.

For starters, look at the ink. The ink on the real document fades after so many years and is usually uneven in its application due to being dipped in an inkwell. Look at the real document, left page second line. Now look at the first posted document. That ink is evenly applied throughout the entire document. The same can more or less be said for the second, blue-ink document.

The second thing I look at is the paper. Maybe blacklight would show a difference, I haven't tried it. The real document paper is of a different composition after really being aged some fifty or sixty years. The fake stuff's texture is more tightly woven, yet "browned" or chemically altered. The newer production paper seems firmer.

A third danger sign, though not entirely reliable, is if the document has a "hook." By that I mean a desirable location, unit, date, or Jewish name. This is meant to entice the purchaser and push him over the edge. Believe me, if you are encountering a NKVD ID 15 years after the great sell-off, it's 99% bad.

Buy from a reputable dealer who offers money back.

[NavyFCO]

I just put a large-sized scan of my document up on the web for your viewing pleasure and education. This document is one from a group I have that came directly from the son of the officer and consists of perhaps 300+ documents, photos, etc. along with the medals, badges, and orders from this fellow.

--Dave

http://www.forvalor.com/forum/ShteinDocLarge.jpg

[Bill D.]

Thanks, Dave, for the enlarged scan.

I have contacted a few "questioned Documents Examiners" about this question, simple asking if they could make a determination as to age of some of these documents based on various scientific analysis methods. Right now I know that we are going with a "common sense approach", which I think for the most part involves simply looking at the document and trying to come to a conclusion. I thought, for example, that the two ID's I posted at the begining looked pretty good, and I don't think that there is anything particularly "sexy" about them, though I have not had them in hand. Additionally, I spoke with one fellow today who held the opinion that the fears of fakes on these things were exaggerated. He lived in Russia, and he expressed the opinion that creating these things, writing them up, aging them, etc, would be too much work with not enough profit potential. He said "The Russian way would be stealing. Stacks of these things have been sitting in archives." He thinks that many of these documents, including ones that have been caled bad, are actually good.

It will be interesting to see if I can retain one of these documents experts at a reasonable price, to provide some scientific help (and I could ask them if a black light would be of any use).

If anyone has one of these things that they believe to be fake, and would be willing to loan it if I find a reasonably priced expert, please let me know.