Soviet VDV arm patches

[Kozlov]

Hello!

Something I have seen before but never asked about...

Knocking around are the (1969 onwards) pattern enlisted man's arm patches (shield shaped, coloured backing with yellow printing of the VDV emblem in the middle) from the greatcoat and parade uniform for the VDV in three colours:

1) Light blue - obvious this one, standard colour

2) "Kelly Green" - I have always assumed these were for the two VDV divisions converted into KGB PV airmobile ~1990?

3) "motor rifles red" - Absolutely no idea what the hell these are for. Yes I know the VDV wore red berets prior to the blue ones, but this period was before the 1969 pattern uniforms were issued no? As far as I know there is no overlap.

Any ideas on the green and red?

Cheers!

Andy

[Ciaran Byrne]

The green I am pretty sure were for the KGB Border Guard you mention. The red one I have never seen, either in real life or in photographs. I would imagine that they could possibly be for attached personnel either motor rifle or medic troops attached to VDV units or possibly experimental prototype badges?

[desantnik]

I too would be interested in seeing these. Having collected Soviet stuff for over 20 years these would be items to see. Are you sure these weren't dembel items, perhaps - the yellow plastic design cut out of a blue patch and overlaid on a different color felt?

[Kozlov]

I have seen the green ones "in the flesh" as it were and as far as I can tell they are very real.

The red one is here:



Someone I know has just got this from a source inside Russia... looks the same as a normal one, nothing dembel about it as far as I can see.

Will ask him for some closeup scans of the front and back though.

[desantnik]

Most interesting and potentially rare.

I'd be careful on this, however, as it may be someone's creative work and not official issue, much like many of the various metal airborne and other badges coming out of Russia and the other countries of the former Soviet Union.

[Kozlov]

Oh there is a lot of crap out there and many more fantasy items than you could possibly imagine (particularly of Rus Fed patches!), but the bizarre thing is that many of them are not sold for anything like a high price - I know this particular item was very cheap, just as cheap as any other arm patch from the 80's... never understand why people bother to make fake things to sell for such cheapness?

[Kozlov]

The plot thickens Comrades!

Here are large but detailed pics of the front and back of this patch:

http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?i...b240023vd9.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?i...b280041le9.jpg

Now the person this belongs to said this cost $10, which is the same price the seller wanted for all of the arm patches (expensive I know, but obviously this wasn't sold as "unusual", "rare" or even "spetsnaz" lol)

Wait for the bombshell though... he also had this in BLACK too!!!

Arrrgh!

[Ciaran Byrne]

I have heard of NCOs and ORs who were attached to different branch of arm units wearing collar patches of the colour of their attached unit but wearing the collar badges of their specific unit i.e. a tanker attached to a motor-rifle unit would wear red collar devices with metal tank insignia. I have photographic evidence to support this. The patches could have been a variation on this theme, possibly due to be introduced but never materialised to the break-up of the Soviet Union.

[Kozlov]

Yes that is correct, a tanker in a tank regiment of a motor rifles division (for there were three infantry regiments and one tank regiment in an motor rifles division and the reverse in a tank division) but under those circumstances the metal device on the collar tabs would be the only difference - the arm patch would remain the same.

So an attached unit to an airborne division could in theory wear different collar devices, but everything would be sky blue as far as I know. Although I have never seen that...

Taking the KGB PV air mobile patch as a known good example, this is an airborne unit of the KGB PV, their boards would have been green with PV ciphers, the collar tabs would have been green and the devices airborne.

For this red (and now black!) patches to follow suit, this would mean following the logic, the motor rifles/technical troops aquirring their own organic airborne troops.

The DShB for example were never employed at a divisional level, they were a resource of the Army or Front commander (can't remember which) and the VDV themselves were an asset of STAVKA as they were a strategic force.

This really doesn't make any sense at all

Does anyone agree though that the example red patch looks authentic?

[MASSOUD]

Hello Andy,
The green ones are OK worn either by the 103rd BG div. and more frequently by the BG DshMG that operated in Afghanistan.On the follwing pic,this sergeqnt is belonging to a DshMG unit,you can notice he's wearing no para badge (i.e. he's not a member of the PV ABN Div) and he's wearing the badge 60th birthday of the BG central Asian District and the combat medals for serving in a Air Assault unit....

For the Red one,I've seen once on E*** that it was sold as worn by the Air assault section of the Higher Officer Inf.school in Baku (????)-It was sold as a set including the Kursant Shoulder boards,the red collar tabs with the metal abn insignias and the sleeve patch,here is a pic..

Regarding the black one,no idea....But according to some experienced collegues on a russian collectors forum,all these patches representing technical,engineer....for the Interior Army,the KGB and the ABN (with red otr black background for the army)or Aviation patches for the BB MVD for example are all fakes.....

[Kozlov]

Oooooh interesting JP!

What is DshMG? Not a thing I have ever heard of before?

The only air assault troops I have heard of are the DShB, who definitely wore sky blue.

I wonder if the patch is red simply because that is the "school" colour? But you say it was an infantry school and I have definitely seen Kursant boards in blue and black, so its not just a Kursant colour thing??

Anyway, at least I finally have something that looks like the answer, even if I don't understand it!

Andy

[MASSOUD]

DshMG : Desantna Shturmovie Manevrennie Gruppy or Air Assault Manoever Group.These BG units were about 8 based in Soviet Union but making cross border ops in Afghanistan.They were operating along BG MMG -Moto Manevrennie Gruppy-Motorised Manoever Groups (equipped with trucks and BTR/BMP).Composition was : C&C platoon,3 to 4 border Post units,commo platoon,Antitank platoon,supply platoon,engineer platoon,recon platoon,mortar battery and a medical unit...About 200 to 300 men.The difference with the DShMG was that the latter was only heliborne.
regarding the ABN patches,I think that the red and the black ones were made for very short lived units or units that were planned to be created but never were...Anyway nice to collect....

[Kozlov]

Ahhhh yes, we always think of the KGB PV as just frontier troops who stand around with rifles, but the KGB PV were much more than that - particularly on the borders with China, Finland and the Barents coast.

I wonder if the red and black patches were when they were trying to decide where air assault troops would fit into the TOE - and tried a few variantions before going with the DShB structure? DShB existed beyond Afganistan, there were certainly DShB units allocated to the GSFG in the DDR by the end of the 1980's.

[MASSOUD]

Ahhhh yes, we always think of the KGB PV as just frontier troops who stand around with rifles, but the KGB PV were much more than that - particularly on the borders with China, Finland and the Barents coast.

I wonder if the red and black patches were when they were trying to decide where air assault troops would fit into the TOE - and tried a few variantions before going with the DShB structure? DShB existed beyond Afganistan, there were certainly DShB units allocated to the GSFG in the DDR by the end of the 1980's.

I presume so...Black ones for DshB assigned to an armored Div and red for Mech. Infantry.Bolstering the armed forces in the perspective of a coming conflict in Europe...

[willie777]

Erm, so a Motor Rifles regiment in a Tank division would wear motor rifles insignia on black collar tabs, but what patch and shoulderboards?

Yes that is correct, a tanker in a tank regiment of a motor rifles division (for there were three infantry regiments and one tank regiment in an motor rifles division and the reverse in a tank division) but under those circumstances the metal device on the collar tabs would be the only difference - the arm patch would remain the same.

So an attached unit to an airborne division could in theory wear different collar devices, but everything would be sky blue as far as I know. Although I have never seen that...

Taking the KGB PV air mobile patch as a known good example, this is an airborne unit of the KGB PV, their boards would have been green with PV ciphers, the collar tabs would have been green and the devices airborne.

For this red (and now black!) patches to follow suit, this would mean following the logic, the motor rifles/technical troops aquirring their own organic airborne troops.

The DShB for example were never employed at a divisional level, they were a resource of the Army or Front commander (can't remember which) and the VDV themselves were an asset of STAVKA as they were a strategic force.

This really doesn't make any sense at all

Does anyone agree though that the example red patch looks authentic?