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JNA Musician Generals Tunic

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    #1

    JNA Musician Generals Tunic

    While I was living in Belgrade I pulled this Generals tunic out of a pile of old tunics in a junk yard. It is in amazingly good condition consdiering where I found it! Unfortunately, some of the insignia was removed before it was discarded and I have some questions about how to restore it. The insignia on the shoulderboards has been removed. You can just see the hole where it was. My question here is - 1-What would have been worn on the shoulderboards of this tunic? A generals wreath and swords or the musicians symbol? There is not an impression visible on the shoulderboards that would help me know that. Probably silver to match the rest of the uniform. Question 2- There are butons under the left shoulderboard and the left breats lapel for an auguilette. Would a General of Music have worn the same cord as worn by the musicians? If not what would he have worn? Question 3-Would a General of Music wear the standard gold brockade belt of a JNA General? Question 4-The round musicians insignia has been removed from both sleeves. I've attached a photo of where it was located and you can still see the threads where it was cut off. Would a General wear the same insignia as other officers? What coulor were these round cloth insignia for officers and were they different than enlisted mens? I hope someone can answer some of these questions for me.

    Regards,

    Gordon
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    Last edited by Gordon Craig; 01-14-2006, 07:51 PM.
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    #2
    Another view of the uniform.
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      #3
      Third and last view. The shoulderboards.
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        #4
        Here is a scan from my reference book on JNA uniforms. Unfortunately, it is all in black and white so I can get no indications of colours.
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          #5
          Hello Gordon,

          I'll try to check my references at home for your questions, but I think this is not a general's tunic .

          My doubts are based on the following:
          -shoulder boards have only one line of piping, although there should be two lines for officers above major, and special piping for generals;
          -only one hole for shoulder boards device; for general rank there should be at least two - for wreath and at least one star; above that - ALL general boards I've ever seen had the wreath weaven, not pinned. I've never seen metal general's wreath for shoulder boards;
          -the collar badge in general's style (like the one in reference book) was mostly used for generals, but just before the end (1989-1990-1991) this kind of badges were introduced for parade quality officer tunics also for lower ranks (the "blue" parade tunic for army, slightly different (darker color) than for guards units, which used blue tunics for a long time before) and I also saw badges like this sold as "musician" - but you can be never 100% sure with those dealers...

          So I believe this is "only" a tunic for musical official in the rank of 2nd leutenant - based on one hole in the shoulderboard (sorry ), but nevertheless a nice one!

          And my preliminary answers to your ?:

          1. as above; on YU shoulder boards (from 50's or so on) there were only rank insignia, never trade badges;
          2. probably "normal" music anguilettes, but I'm not sure;
          3. nope, musicians wore special silver & blue brocades; the same were later used for late blue parade officer tunics; please note there were not "special" general's brocades in JNA, the same brocades were for all officers - they were used only on parades and other special occasions, on normal occasions they all wore open-claw messing buckles. Also note that silver and gold insignia never went together - the officers always wore gold insiginia (shoulder boards, trade badges, brocades etc), but officials always everything in silver;
          4. not sure, but probably silver weaven OR bullion wire; probably the one like this:

          http://www.bolha.com/oglas1492869

          There were also bullion wire badges like this, but I'm not sure were these for higher ranks or just different style of manufacture. Navy musicians wore gold badges on blue or white, also weaven or bullion wire.

          I'll try to find some pics and post them in next days.

          Regards, Matjaz



          PS: Hey, Dejan, are you there??? We probably need your help!!!

          Comment

            #6
            Matjaz,

            Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions so well. I am not surprised to hear this is not a Generals tunic. The one hole in the shoulderboard made me doubt this as well. It was identified as a Generals tunic by a friend in Belgrade. He was in the arms trade so was not an expert in uniforms.

            Thanks very much for the URL of the web site for the shoulder patches. Unfortunately, what little Serbian I once knew has long deserted me and I would never be able to order them successfully. I'll have to wait until I can get them through an English speaking dealer. I did order a musicians aguaillette from Trident Militaria so I can at least add that to the uniform.

            The information on the braid on the tunics is very useful. I was not aware of that fact. Although now that I take a second look at the rank charts I copied off World Insignia it is obvious.

            Looking forward to you pictures. And thanks once again for all of your help. It is really appreciated.

            Perhaps you can help me identify the coat in the pictures below. It came from the same pile as the musicians uniform. I was told it would have been worn by an officer cadet in the school in Belgrade. What can you tell me a bout it?
            Regards,

            Gordon
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              #7
              A close up of the collar tabs and shoulderboards.
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                #8
                The manufacturers lable.
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                  #9
                  As Matjaz said,summer junior officer (2nd LT) parade tunic.Not to be confused whit "blue" parade uniform.Missing patches same as on link you have.White musican anguliettes.Special brocade belts for musicans at each branch inside JNA.
                  Regards
                  Dejan

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Dejan,

                    Thanks for the confirmation and the info on the belt.

                    Regards,

                    Gordon

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Hello Gordon,

                      I didn't forget your coat, I just had lots of work and didn't find time to check my books.

                      Unfortunately, I didn't find any pics of army musicians, but I'll keep looking. The greatcoat is an officer model and it's probably really from one of the academies or NCO schools. I notice (one) gold button, these were (as far as I know - please anyone correct me!) only for guard units and schools, not for "normal" officers. The collar patch is standard officer type and the single shoulder board strap (for the rank of seargent) also indicates kind of school/academy. Is there any hole for a star on the shoulder boards? If not, it's almost 100% academy/school coat, as the cadets didnt' wear stars until last year. The space between the shoulder and < suggest there was once a special strap worn only by cadets (I attached a pic, sorry for the bad scan) - any traces of it?

                      The makers label is also interesting - it's made in Sarajevo in 1991, the yugoslavia's last year and only a year before guys in those uniforms started to bomb Sarajevo. The name of the factory "22. decembar" (22nd december) was a holiday of JNA, on that day in 1941 first partisan proletarian brigade was instituted in village Rudo in eastern Bosnia. When I served in JNA, it meant a free day, but when my father served in 60's, it also meant a free half litre of wine for every soldier!

                      Regards, Valter

                      PS: on january 28th there will be a collector's show in Ljubljana and I can look for some musician patches for you, if you want to, or I can maybe get some from the slovenian auction board - the guy was asking about 6 EU for a pair.
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                        #12
                        Maybe alittle off topic, but I just find some pics of JNA shoulder boards from my collection.

                        top left, "zastavnik 1. klase", before 1982 (the rank of "zastavnik" isd similar to german Fahnrich, I don't know exact english counterpart. Sew-in boards for service (not field) tunic; note machine-sewn rank ribbons.

                        top middle - the same ("Fahnrich 1st class") after 1982, single board for field tunic, which was fastened to a loop on tunic; the button should be part of a tunic itself. Note thin rank cords, the same as used for officr piping, handly sewn by the owner.

                        top right - slip-on board for greatcoat, for sergeant 1st class, before 1982 (after 1892 it would be the same as previous, but with only one cord)

                        bottom - junior sergenat and sergeant, after 1982, for summer shirt. The right pair uses old stock of pre-82 ribbon instead of regulation thin cord. I prefered this wider ribbon instead of a cord, so I usd it . The bottom two pairs sewn and worn by yours truly in early 1991.

                        Regards, Valter
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                          #13
                          the reverses of the boards...
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                            #14
                            Valter,

                            Sorry that I have been so slow in answering. I am selling of a lot of my firearms and I've been busy taking pictures, sending emails etc. There is no sign of a hole in the shoulderboards or of the stripe you mentioned.
                            I would be greatful if you would look for a pair of musicians badges for me or simply buy them off the internet. 6 Euros be fine with me. If you get them let me know what the total cost will be with postage and I'll send you the money. If you come across a musicians belt I would really like to have one of those. Since I can not use my Generals belt on my tunic I guess I'll have to keep it until I get a Generals tunic.

                            One more question. Would a musician officer wear the standard JNA officers cap and badge or were their diferent badges for musicians?

                            Thanks for posting the shoulderboards. I have some rank lists for shoulderboards but far from complete. I have a whole bag of shoulderboards somewhere in my basement and I'll try and dig them out soon and post some pictures.

                            Have fun at Ljubljanna. I hope you find something nice for your own collection.

                            Regards,

                            Gordon
                            Last edited by Gordon Craig; 01-25-2006, 09:40 PM.

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                              #15
                              Hi Gordon,

                              no problem, I'll try to get you the musicians badges & belt, they are not that scarce here.
                              Not 100% sure, but I think they wore standard officer caps, I'll check again at home.


                              Good luck with your firearms sale!

                              Regards, valter

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