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    #1

    Early Bundeswehr Para Helmet

    I don't know anything about these, and it was posted for discussion in the FJ section;

    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1027938

    If anyone could help it would be appreciated.
    Willi

    Preußens Gloria!

    sigpic

    Sapere aude
    Tags: None
    #2
    First of all, a mint condition BW M38 type helmet is maybe a quarter that price on a bloody day of eBay bidding. Rare trials helmets of a documented type in this condition probably go for even less, certainly not more. Just had to get that out of the way

    I've only had a chance to quickly check my references, but in my opinion this is not a BW helmet "as is". That said, all of the BW FJ helmets in the 1950s were trial items and there could very well be small production runs that aren't well documented.

    Things I don't like about it:

    1. BGS GSG-9 liner screws. BW helmets of this type had the normal WW2 M38 style screw that recess into dimples in the shell. You can see these screws are sitting on the surface of the shell.

    2. Cut rim edge. All BW helmets of this style, and other styles I checked, have a crimped rim.

    That said, the liner looks like the type used in the BW M38 style helmet. It has a distinct hole pattern different than other helmets. Chinstrap is the correct type for this style helmet, not the type used by BGS.

    Conclusion... whatever this is, it isn't a type of BW helmet I'm aware of.

    Steve

    Comment

      #3
      Willi Z,

      Steve has covered this helmet fairly well but I will add my two cents worth. There were numerous different FJ M38 "trial" helmets made by Schubrt, Romer and possibly others. They are covered reasonably well in Ludwig Baer's Volume Two "Von Stahlhelm zum Gefechtshelm". Without a makers mark who made it will remain un known. I have two of the post war Luftlande M38 style helmets and I have not been able to find any makers marks in them. The subject helmet could have been one of the early Luftlande M38 style helmets but without some provenance it is only conjecture.
      There is another possible source for this helmet and that is the SEK (riot/barracks) police of some states that used similar helmets. I have one from the state of Baden Wurtemberg that looks similar to the subject helmet. It look more like a cut down standard stahlhelm. My Baden Wurtemberg helmet uses the same bolts as the subject helmet and the same chin strap system. I have not handled any of the other state SEK type helmets and do not know what they look like and they could be very different from the one that I have from Baden Wurtemberg. I would buy the subject helmet but the seller is vastly off in what he thinks it is worth. The attached pictures show one of my Luftlande helmets and the SEK one from Baden Wurtemberg.

      Regards,

      Gordon
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #4
        Hi Gordon,

        The W-B SEK helmets (I have one as well) are cut down BW M61 FJ helmets. You can tell the difference in the shells as the M61 has a distinct slope towards the front when viewed in profile. The M38 type, on the other hand, is fairly uniform in shape when in profile. The mystery helmet appears to be M38.

        If I had to guess at what the mystery helmet is a genuine M38 style helmet that was missing its straps and bolts. Someone then grabbed bolts and straps from a M61 helmet and voila... a functional helmet. The crimped edge was removed and various paint jobs made to make it look more like a WW2 helmet. We can hope it was done by a reenactor, but of course it could have been done to fool an unsuspecting collector.

        Either way, it isn't worth much IMHO. Even if someone were to restore it (which is possible) the size is terribly small.

        Steve

        Comment

          #5
          Steve,

          You could be correct as to the helmet that started this thread but without holding the helmet in my hand who knows? There is a picture of one early trial helmet in Baer's Vol #2 that looks a lot like the subject helmet.

          Regards,

          Gordon

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Gordon Craig View Post
            Steve,

            You could be correct as to the helmet that started this thread but without holding the helmet in my hand who knows? There is a picture of one early trial helmet in Baer's Vol #2 that looks a lot like the subject helmet.

            Regards,

            Gordon
            Yeah, there are several variants in Baer's summary picture page (sadly, I don't have the book itself) that made me pause. However, I didn't see any that had the M38 shape, cut edge, large single slot bolts, and WW2 type liner. A couple had two out of four, but not all four. If you think you see one with all four features, it would be great to see one. I've tried to keep track of all the variants and still feel like my info is incomplete.

            Another possibility, aside from post service part swapping, is the helmet was used for training and got Frankensteined to keep it in service.

            Steve

            Comment

              #7
              Have a look:
              http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...emberg&page=24


              It´s an legit, seldom seen helmet of the SEK, (Spezialeinsatzkommando), Baden Württemberg.

              Af far as I know a modified variant based on the FJ-Helmes 60, only introduced in BaWü.
              Maker, probably, Römer.


              Helmet probably based on a Fallschirmjäger trial -helmet of the Bundeswehr.


              Variant pattern helmets were introduced by Römer in 1957, as far as I know.

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by Reibert-Austria View Post
                Have a look:
                http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...emberg&page=24


                It´s an legit, seldom seen helmet of the SEK, (Spezialeinsatzkommando), Baden Württemberg.

                I'm a bit confused Are you saying the helmet that started this thread is the same as the B-W SEK helmet? If you are, look up a couple of posts of mine and you'll see there are differences between the two types.

                That said, I'll amend my previous post and say that the helmet could have been "Frankensteined" by B-W SEK or another SEK by combining pieces from from two different helmets.

                Steve

                Comment

                  #9
                  Sry., Steve, I meant Gordon´s BW SEK -helmet, (the 1st one in #3).

                  Comment

                    #10
                    All is clear now

                    In 2011 a B-W warehouse must have purged their supply because a fair number of these came onto the market. By that I mean maybe a single seller had about a dozen. I paid EUR 100 for a pretty nice one from that guy. I've only seen a few here and there since.

                    Steve

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post
                      I don't know anything about these, and it was posted for discussion in the FJ section;

                      http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1027938

                      If anyone could help it would be appreciated.

                      I try my best Willi

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ogpsycho View Post
                        I try my best Willi
                        You did very well Thanks for the great pictures and information. It would be fantastic if you could document the 10+ types you know of and to make sure we understand the differences between them for identification purposes.

                        Best!

                        Steve

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Hi Steve,

                          I recommend the book by Ludwig Baer on the subject. "From steel helmet to combat helmet - Volume II"
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