Stumpftarn Jacket ID Help

[Bob Hritz]

I jusf bought this and was wondering if BGS or Bundesheer, or just a knock off. There is a harder reinforcing material on the shoulders and under the elbow pads. I could not find any label or markings.

Thank you,
Bob Hritz

[RJKG]

Bundesgrenzschutz; looks like a type 2 circa 1959/60. I believe the earlier ones had no labels, but were merely stamped internally, and over the course of time these stamps often wear off.

[STUG III]

BGS jacket

Agreed, also there is no shoulder pocket with flap and eagle. An earlier version no doubt!

[Collectinsteve]

Oh... this is WAY better than an early BGS jacket! This is the ultra rare Schleswig-Holstein Polizei Sumpftarn jacket. Very, very, very rare. Easily worth 2-3 times more than a 1st Model BGS Sumpftarn jacket (no arm pocket), 5-10 times more than a 2nd Model (arm pocket).

It was worn by S-H Pol only for a tiny bit of time in the late 1950s and not in significant quantities. I've only documented 6 of these. There's probably quite a few in collections under the mistaken notion that it's BGS, as was mine for many years. As far as I know there are no trousers to match this jacket.

Keep this one set aside for your retirement

Steve

[Bob Hritz]

Thank you all very much. Ihad not seen this type before and took a chance to purchase.

Bob Hritz

[RJKG]

Apologies ! Upon checking my BGS type 2 jacket (type 1 being the pullover type smock) I can see the following differences between it and the one illustrated

Straight flaps, as opposed to pointed ones on lower pockets of jacket illustrated.

More pointed corners to the collar, as opposed to rounded ones on that illustrated.

Sumpftarn pattern on upper lining and internal 'D' ring reinforcement strip, as opposed to olive drab on BGS version.

Would I be correct that these are the main differences ?

Also, would it be correct to say that the early type 2 BGS jacket lacked sleeve pockets on L sleeve; epaulette attachment loops and featured no internal labels, whereas these all appeared in the later (post 1960) version of the same jacket ?

[Collectinsteve]

Apologies ! Upon checking my BGS type 2 jacket (type 1 being the pullover type smock) I can see the following differences between it and the one illustrated

Straight flaps, as opposed to pointed ones on lower pockets of jacket illustrated.

More pointed corners to the collar, as opposed to rounded ones on that illustrated.

Sumpftarn pattern on upper lining and internal 'D' ring reinforcement strip, as opposed to olive drab on BGS version.

Would I be correct that these are the main differences ?

Yup. There's lots of differences when you start looking, but the pocket flaps and lack of caping on the shoulders are the two that are easiest to focus on. Later S-H Polizei Einsatzanzug have almost the same design right through to the 1970s. No other Polizei/BGS uniform has those two features. That is what pretty much confirmed the origins of this jacket.

Also, would it be correct to say that the early type 2 BGS jacket lacked sleeve pockets on L sleeve; epaulette attachment loops and featured no internal labels, whereas these all appeared in the later (post 1960) version of the same jacket ?

There's two BGS jackets... 1st Model ran between 1958 and perhaps as late as 1962 (seems most production was up to 1960). No arm pocket is the dead give away. 2nd Model started in 1967 and ran through 1975. Arm pocket is the tell tale sign.

Almost all 1st Model items were made with the 1st Pattern Sumpftarn, which is a coarser fabric and the printing has very little space between the red and green shapes. 2nd Model items (jacket and parka) were made from smoother cloth with generally brighter appearance and distinct gaps between the red and green shapes. The Sumpftarn Zeltbahns, made 1959-1963 used the same patter and some very late production 1st Model hoods and jackets have some pieces which apparently were from Zeltbahn production. My guess is they were winding down contracts and were short some cloth but not enough to do a new run, therefore they used Zeltbahn material.

Items produced in Sumpftarn:

- 1st Model (1958-1962) = jacket, detachable hood, trousers, and cap

- 2nd Model (1967-1975) = jacket, parka, and thin plastic rain poncho

- Zeltbahn production was between 1959-1963

- Pull over ski-smock production dates are unknown as none are dated. However, since they were made with the 1st Pattern cloth that indicates they were probably made in the late 1950s or early 1960s.

- GSG-9 helmet cover and GSG-9 body armor cover were also produced, apparently after 1976.

No other official BGS Sumpftarn items were produced to my knowledge.

Then there's the Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn uniform consisting of jacket, detachable hood, and trousers.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

Steve,

have you already forgotten, that this is a BGS jacket? Very early type of unknown origin, found a few photos in wear - unlike later jackets always worn over the wool uniform without other camo items. Possibly trial item, possibly something else, but never widely issued and only in late 50s.

We never had evidence it is S-H, except similarity of cut, that was only a theory before the period photos surfaced.

Regards
Klaus

[Klaus1989]

[Collectinsteve]

Ha! I have forgotten. So much so that I don't even remember the evidence that shifted us from S-H to BGS. Now I do remember the pictures at least. Can you remind me, and everybody else here, what information shifted the theory of origin? Thanks!

My recollection of early S-H uniforms is in B&W photos they would look pretty much the same as BGS for the early-mid 1950s timeframe. But we probably already covered that and I'm just drawing a total blank on what was discussed.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

the photos shifted the theory. These are BGS men and i have about half dozen other photos of members of same unit with them. Came across them on a veteran website. They are only known photos of it worn.

Our theory about S-H use was solely based on the similarity of pattern and fact, that West Berlin also used Sumpftarn (so why not other Bepo experiment with it?) and no connection to BGS was known at time. I admit, that the pattern seem very untypical for BGS. Of course, they could still have been S-H trial jackets given to BGS. I know of no documented examples of BGS use of S-H items, so not sure how likely that is.

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Thanks! It's coming back to me now IIRC we developed two theories:

1. The origins are S-H and BGS borrowed some for trials. The BGS developed its own uniforms based on the S-H design, but significantly different.

This is not unheard of for German forces. The one that comes to mind is very early BW use of ÖBH Y-straps. There's maybe 2 pictures of this, but enough soldiers had them that it was more than a one-off. I wonder if the same thing happened with the first model canteen, which was also used by ÖBH.

2. The origins are BGS only, but was based on existing S-H design. This is plausible because S-H appears to have had an Einsatzanzug around the same time. See picture below.

Whatever the case, we do know that in the 1950s the BGS and S-H Polizei worked very closely together. Which is understandable given that S-H was on the frontline and the BGS was headquartered there.

This picture is a joint BGS/S-H exercise reportedly from 1959:



Steve

[Klaus1989]

S-H was indeed one of the best equipped Bepo units and there was very strong push in early 60s for combattant status of S-H Polizei, that failed 1963 from objections of GdP. So development of uniforms in anticipation of it passing is not completely unreasonable.

However at moment, i would only label the jacket "unknown early BGS model" without further infos. Interesting, that it seem to be worn as overgarment in all but one photo i have found. The baggy cut and drawstrings also point in this direction possibly. I not think it is part of the main series of jackets however (so not "1st model"), but a different development possibly.

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

I would be far more hesitant to suggest it being S-H if we didn't also have Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn. Meaning, we know for a fact that someone other than BGS used Sumpftarn in this time period. If there was no Berlin Sumpftarn I'd set the bar higher for declaring this S-H.

Whatever the case may be, there is some sort of connection with S-H. Either BGS looked to S-H for their initial Sumpftarn uniform design or it was S-H to begin with and BGS wound up with some samples. Unfortunately, the lack of definitive information means we can't rule out either possibility completely. No matter how much weight we put towards one or the other.

To recap what we know for sure or as good as sure as we can be:

1. issued in very small numbers.
2. the same cut as S-H Einsatzanzug, which is otherwise unique to S-H.
3. worn over a wool uniform without complimentary camouflage hat or trousers.
4. worn by at least one unit of the BGS.
5. no rank on shoulders originally, but at least one example shows it added.
6. seems to have been subjected to demilling.

I want to mention the demilling. We know that the BGS has a long history of removing buttons and slashing uniforms. I have documented 7 of these jackets in total and 3 of them appear to have been demilled:

Jacket 1 = all original buttons removed
Jacket 2 = right collar cut off (and repaired)
Jacket 3 = left collar cut off (and repaired)

In my mind this further indicates that some quantity of these jackets were BGS property as I'm not sure anybody else would have demilled them.

I'm comfortable calling this type of jacket "experimental BGS", but not definitely. I think there's still a good case to make that this is S-H originally.

Steve