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    #1

    Sumpftarn Smock Questions

    I don't have this in hand yet and I paid too much for it but that doesn't really matter. Would this be Police or BGS and how do I tell the difference? It also has a plastic zipper which I've not seen in any pictures but it appears to be period when compared to some of my other older German stuff. Anything you guys can tell me would be appreciated:







    Tags: None
    #2
    Look like BGS, earlier production because of pressed paper buttons. There are several slight variants of these, but none are marked, so hard to say, if factory or certain timeframe variants (issued from 1958 to late 60s). The smock in my collection has khaki fabric parts on fly instead of green and zipper is metal Nagel brand. Not sure, if yours is plastic, look like could be painted metal?

    West Berlin smocks are very rare and have PPBln stamp. I assume also printed in the Berliner Sumpftarn pattern. I am sure Steve can say more about the Berlin smocks.

    Regards
    Klaus

    Comment

      #3
      This is a solid example in overall good condition. The zipper is definitely not original, but it looks like it's been on there during its service so it was probably a period replacement. Looks like the original buttons are present, which is always good to see!

      As far as I know only BGS wore these pull over smocks. Pooling knowledge, I'd say there's about two dozen of these that have been examined and none have ever had stamps or labels (other than size). Even ones that are in pretty much new condition.

      Berlin Polizei wore a two piece uniform with both pieces close copies of the BGS 1st Model type (1958-1962 manufacture). The Berlin type is, IIRC, 1960-1962 production. All Berlin stuff I've ever seen have clear stamps even if very well used, BGS not so reliable. There's ways to tell which is which, though it takes a little bit of experience as sometimes they can be tricky to ID from photos.

      Steve

      Comment

        #4
        Thanks guys! I'll post some detailed pictures once it arrives
        Last edited by BWilhelm; 01-21-2016, 10:38 PM.

        Comment

          #5
          Steve,

          I thought someone had mentioned PPBln smock once, but can not remember. Probably just a misremember.

          Regards
          Klaus

          Comment

            #6
            100% BGS and decent condition.

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by Klaus1989 View Post
              Steve,

              I thought someone had mentioned PPBln smock once, but can not remember. Probably just a misremember.

              Regards
              Klaus
              Maybe someone did, but I don't recall it. Generally speaking, I ascribe to the philosophy of "show me a picture or it doesn't exist" school of thought. It's not always fair, not always appropriate, but generally speaking it tends to filter out more incorrect information than exclude good information.

              BGS and Berlin Sumpftarn are often confused even by people who know what to look for. Even though I have a lot of these uniforms and made this a special study of mine, I still have to double and sometimes triple check a picture to know what I am looking at. Sometimes the picture isn't good enough to make a positive ID.

              Then there's the problems with language. Smock to one person is jacket to another and coat to a third. Which is why a picture is the best thing

              Steve

              Comment

                #8
                Hello, old thread but still very interesting.

                You guys always talk about a Polizei Berlin stamp "PPBln".
                I just bought a Sumpftarn jacket with a stamp "PPBerlin".

                Is that the same or something different?
                And is it BGS or Police?

                Regards, Matthias
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #9
                  Matthias,

                  Heh... I have pictures of your jacket dated 2014. Have you had it that long or do I have pics from the previous owner? Just curious

                  For sure this is Berlin Polizei, not BGS. Your jacket is the latest production date (6/62) I've encountered. Earliest I've seen is 2/60. As for the stamps, "P.P.Bln" = "P.P.Berlin", though people (like me) tend not to use the periods when typing even though I think they're always present in the stamps.

                  As far as I know only the PPBerlin stamp is on Sumpftarn items. PPBerlin and PPBln are seen on other items.

                  And something I missed about the smock that started this thread. The zipper might be a very old replacement. I don't think I've ever seen anything other than a bright metal zipper on these smocks. That includes early examples with pressed paper buttons. In fact, it looks like the buttons for the pictured smock are missing for the front closure? More evidence of a replacement IMHO.

                  Steve

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Collectinsteve View Post
                    Matthias,

                    Heh... I have pictures of your jacket dated 2014. Have you had it that long or do I have pics from the previous owner? Just curious

                    For sure this is Berlin Polizei, not BGS. Your jacket is the latest production date (6/62) I've encountered. Earliest I've seen is 2/60. As for the stamps, "P.P.Bln" = "P.P.Berlin", though people (like me) tend not to use the periods when typing even though I think they're always present in the stamps.

                    As far as I know only the PPBerlin stamp is on Sumpftarn items. PPBerlin and PPBln are seen on other items.

                    Steve
                    Thanks for your response and explanation, Steve.

                    The pictures you have must have been from the previous owner as I bought this Jacket today. Are you 100% sure that it is exactly this jacket?

                    Anyway, the jacket comes along with a matching Sumpftarn helmet cover.

                    If desired I'll show detailed pictures of both items when arriving at my house.

                    Regards, Matthias

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Oberbootsmann View Post
                      Thanks for your response and explanation, Steve.

                      The pictures you have must have been from the previous owner as I bought this Jacket today. Are you 100% sure that it is exactly this jacket?
                      Yup, 100% sure. I have many pictures and all the camouflage shape details match yours exactly. No doubt about it. Small world

                      Anyway, the jacket comes along with a matching Sumpftarn helmet cover.
                      The only official helmet cover was for the TIG armored helmet used by GSG-9. I'm assuming this is what you will get. It's easy to identify by the shape and cutouts make it very different from other covers.
                      h this smock.

                      Steve

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Collectinsteve View Post
                        The only official helmet cover was for the TIG armored helmet used by GSG-9. I'm assuming this is what you will get. It's easy to identify by the shape and cutouts make it very different from other covers.
                        h this smock.

                        Steve
                        Thanks Steve, I'm really impressed by your knowledge!
                        That GSG-9 TIG helmet cover, is it also Sumpftarn camo?

                        As soon as my stuff arrives I'll show detailed pictures of jacket and helmet cover.
                        I have just two pictures from the seller which I have attached to this post.

                        Regards, Matthias
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Oberbootsmann View Post
                          Thanks Steve, I'm really impressed by your knowledge!
                          Spend a few thousand Dollars on Sumpftarn stuff and you too can have similar knowledge

                          That GSG-9 TIG helmet cover, is it also Sumpftarn camo?
                          It is the only Sumpftarn helmet cover used by BGS. Not exactly sure when, but late 1970s through 1980s is a safe bet. As far as I know it was the only Sumpftarn item that was officially worn after the 1976 transition to new uniforms. Sumpftarn parkas were worn unofficially for a time it seems.



                          Here's a link to more detailed pictures. Scroll all the way to the bottom:

                          https://www.hotdogandsodacompany.de/...pfbedeckungen/

                          Not only is the shape of the cover very different from any other cover, there are numerous reinforced openings to accommodate the unique features of the TiG helmets (radio gear and visor). IIRC these were made with the rubberized fabric so commonly seen as faked M43 hats. I have one somewhere...

                          As soon as my stuff arrives I'll show detailed pictures of jacket and helmet cover.
                          I have just two pictures from the seller which I have attached to this post.
                          From the pics you posted it seems to be a homemade stitch together cover. As far as I know such covers were not used even unofficially by BGS members. Even if it happened here and there the chances of finding one with provenance is a tall order. Most likely the cover was made for either the reenacting market or to dupe people into thinking they were getting something from WW2 before cheap repros became available. I'm hoping you didn't pay much for it.

                          Steve

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Oberbootsmann View Post
                            Hello, old thread but still very interesting.

                            You guys always talk about a Polizei Berlin stamp "PPBln".
                            I just bought a Sumpftarn jacket with a stamp "PPBerlin".

                            Is that the same or something different?
                            And is it BGS or Police?

                            Regards, Matthias
                            Oberbootsmann,

                            A comment on the stamp. This stamp was used up until sometime in the mid 60s when they stopped using GB. After that it was usually just PPBln or something similar. You can never say anything about stamps as being used 100% in any given period.

                            Regards,

                            Gordon

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Gordon Craig View Post
                              Oberbootsmann,

                              A comment on the stamp. This stamp was used up until sometime in the mid 60s when they stopped using GB. After that it was usually just PPBln or something similar. You can never say anything about stamps as being used 100% in any given period.

                              Regards,

                              Gordon
                              Thanks, Gordon.

                              Regards, Matthias

                              Comment

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