Armoured Corps Uniforms in the early days of the BW

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I am posting these questions and pictures for Steve Payne.

Regards,

Gordon

Gordon,
Thank you and your friends in the Wehrmacht Awards Forum for all the assistance you have provided me on this project.


Looking at the attached photos, I have the following questions:
1. The group photo #1 seem to be dressed in a 1-piece jumper type uniform - correct? In photo #2 (group on the tank) they seem to be in a 2-piece uniform. Which time frame is which uniform? The bellows pockets - are they always ballooned out or pressed closer (empty) to the leg? (The similar pockets on my BDUs could be ironed such that it was not ballooned out from my leg.)
2. Using Steve's information on rank, I think there are 4 maybe 5 Unterofficer's in the picture - would these be the tank commanders?
3. Looking at the individual on the far right and the tall Unterofficer (with goggles) they seem to be carrying a side arm. What type weapon would they have carried? The holster on the center individual looks much like the ones used for the P08's and P38's.
4. As the M41s were used in a recon role, would the waffenfarbe be gold or pink?
5. I have read references to a cockade on the hats - is this a diamond shape with a "bulls eye" of black, red, gold (Inside to outside) superimposed?
6. The final photo seems to be a tank prepared for a parade - the uniforms look a little to formal. Correct?


Please post all or part of this email to the forum for all to comment on. I look forward to reading the comments from the other Forum members.


Regards to all,

Stephen Payne
IPMS 47035
badgerthree@yahoo.com

[Gordon Craig]

One more picture and one more question.

One final question - most of the operational photos show the turret locked in the "travel" position - is this normal?

[Klaus1989]

1. They wear the same 2-piece olive hbt work uniform in all photos, it is worn in the trousers with belt, so it may appear to be coverall from some angles, but this is not the case. This uniform was worn from around 1955/56 until early 60s and adoption of moleskin. The pockets appear "balloned", when they are full.

2. At least one man on far left appear to be Gefreiter. Will let someone more knowledgable about composition of tank crews answer the rest of question.

3. Pistol holster appear to be for P38 or P1. These were introduced late 50s. Before that used M1911 very briefly.

4. From what I could find, M41 were used by Aufklärungstruppen (gold Waffenfarbe) until around 1965, as was classified as a "Spähpanzer".

5. The cap insignia for hbt field cap of 1950s- early 60s is trapezoid, Kokarde is over crossed swords. The diamond type came later.



6. They appear to wear the bluegrey shirt of the service uniform, which was also common in field during early years (usually with tie, which seem to be absent here). In other photos, the green field shirt ("Nachthemd").

Regards
Klaus

[Phoenix]

Klaus,
Thanks for the clarifications. I am working to convert a Waffen SS tank commander into a BW tank commander. So far, I have been able to add the trouser pockets (empty) and am converting his jacket, using the tops/jackets in my photos and Gordon's infantry group.
My driver will definitely have the m43 cap, but I have a head with a hat similar to the individual in Gordon's photo instructing the troops. Did the BW panzer troops ever wear this type cap? If not I have an additional m43 cap for the commander.
When the troops wore the m1911's were they conventional right hand draw or cross draw as the troops appear to be wearing the P38 holsters?
Thanks for all the guidance.
Regards,
USA Steve
IPMS 47035

[Klaus1989]

The M1911 was probably worn crossdraw, which traditional German way. It is hard to find photos though, because was used only briefly. However one photo of Feldjäger, that I found seem to confirm this.

The hat from Gordon's photo is the Schiffchen (with silver piping for officers), which was introduced for most units in early 1960s to replace the wool "M43" caps. Splinter uniforms were in process of phasing out at this time, so this must be late splinter period. There was some debate about actual introduction of these for various units. Panzer crews (and other units) in mid/late 50s-early 60s did wear the dark grey wool "M43" caps with field and work uniforms sometimes instead of the hbt version. These have metal kokade and crossed swords underneath. Officers would have silver crown piping.

Interesting well-known photo with variety of caps, incl. peaked cap and Schiffchen and rare prototype mag pouches. Not typical of what worn, but illustrate many variations..



A German company already offer 1:35 early Bw Panzer crew interestingly (Splinter era late 50s):

http://www.dolp-modellbau.de/bw-102-...ml?language=de

Regards
Klaus

[Phoenix]

Klaus,
Thanks for these small details - they are usually the hardest to discover and mean the most when creating a subject outside the one intended by the kit builder. Even they make mistakes - the infantry figures with this kit are configured for WWII not the 50's with the M41's.

Would the figures you recommended be correct for an M41G? This is listed as the "NATO" version based on German recommendations.

Again thank you and all the other members of the Forum and readers of this thread.

Regards,
Steve

[Klaus1989]

They should work for M41. The figures have splinter uniforms (4 pockets), so would work for 1957-1960. The uniform were worn by everyone at that time.

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Note that technically wearing of the Splinter uniform was discontinued in 1959 (production ceased in 1957). The Felzlaus (wool) uniform was the official field uniform from 1959 until 1963. However, the Splinter uniform was worn into the 1960s for field maneuvers. Which means they are correct for an early 1960s crew, though the later you go into 1960s the less true this would be Bundeswehr wide.

Sadly the Splinter uniforms were reissued over and over again until they were worn out. Which is why it is so difficult to find very good condition uniforms these days.

Steve

[Phoenix]

To All Forum Members,
I finally finished the Club build of the M41 Walker Bulldog. I would like to thank you and the other members of the Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums that took the time to respond and provide me with photos and guidance to help create the crew for the HEER M41 I did for the Club build. Without the photos and personal information my construction of the crew would have been very much off the mark i.e. the tank commander would have worn a US style tank helmet and had his side arm worn on the right hand side of the figure.

I have sent photos of the tank build to Gordon Craig for those that are interested. They include ones of the HEER crew, Driver & Commander (both in and outside the vehicle) as well as an US Army M41 I upgraded (originally built in the early 1970's) with a driver and additional equipment hung on the tank.
As this is to be a tank of the Command company of a Reconnaissance Brigade, I hope my selection of a Hauptmann as tank commander is appropriate. The Driver is intended to be an Oberfeldwebel. Both sets of shoulder straps do have an Ocher color trim.

Regards and a heartfelt thankyou to all.
Stephen Payne
IPMS 47035