Warning: session_start(): open(/var/cpanel/php/sessions/ea-php74/sess_0553b9743c6405a05a33c3b5de2d3ef381e76633c2ebd389, O_RDWR) failed: No space left on device (28) in /home/devwehrmacht/public_html/forums/includes/vb5/frontend/controller/page.php on line 71 Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/cpanel/php/sessions/ea-php74) in /home/devwehrmacht/public_html/forums/includes/vb5/frontend/controller/page.php on line 71 Comparison of BGS and S-H Jackets - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
Vintage Productions

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Comparison of BGS and S-H Jackets

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Page of 1
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous template Next
    #1

    Comparison of BGS and S-H Jackets

    A while back Klaus mentioned to me the theory that what I've called the BGS 1st Model Sumpftarn jacket is actually from Schleswig-Holstein Polizei. As soon as he suggested that something clicked and the more I think of it the more I think this is correct. I asked a couple of good friends who have been on the S-H Polizei force since 1970s, but none of them have ever heard of their officers wearing camouflage. Which doesn't disprove the theory since it was likely worn when they were still learning how to read and that the jackets are in such small numbers that it is likely they were either experimental or very special issue.

    Since Klaus' opening of my eyes I've been meaning to present the evidence to you all for review. I finally got around to it! First, an overview of the evidence.

    I present to you pictures of the mystery jacket (I will call it S-H Sumpftarn for this discussion), a 1958-1962 BGS Sumpftarn jacket, and a late 1960s early 1970s S-H Einsatz jacket.

    You will note that the S-H Sumpftarn and S-H Einsatz jackets share several features which are not present on the BGS Sumpftarn jacket (or the earlier smocks or later jackets). We know that S-H field items were heavily influenced by BGS so there are two possibilities:

    1. The S-H Einsatz jacket was based upon an experimental BGS jacket that used features that the BGS rejected.

    2. The S-H Einsatz jacket was based upon an experimental S-H jacket that shared some features of BGS jackets, but had some unique features to create a unique identity.

    I think #2 is the more likely situation. Therefore, at the moment, I am more comfortable calling this early Sumpftarn jacket S-H than I am calling it BGS. I'm curious to know what others think!

    Steve
    Last edited by Collectinsteve; 12-12-2014, 05:32 PM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Front of jackets

    BGS Sumpf



    S-H Sumpf



    S-H Einsatz

    Comment

      #3
      Rear of jackets:

      BGS Sumpf



      S-H Sumpf (note D-Ring is sliced off)



      S-H Einsatz

      Comment

        #4
        Inside of jackets:

        BGS Sumpf



        S-H Sumpf



        S-H Einsatz

        Comment

          #5
          Elbow and pocket details:

          BGS Sumpf



          S-H Sumpf



          S-H Einsatz

          Comment

            #6
            Hi Steve,
            good to see comparison! This show definite similarity and some minor differences. Someone once (was it TJ?) posted photo of S-H policeman from late 1950s with same Einsatzanzug, but no sleeve patch. So this style was in use since late 1950s. It would be interesting to see, how one of these early examples would compare. The belt loops on camo jacket seem rather strange/problem for equipment and neither BGS or S-H Einsatzjacke have them. I would think either S-H would design own model or copy BGS (like Berlin did). After introduction of BGS Tarnanzug, it is possible, that it could be experiment of wartime and peacetime uniforms.

            Another collector of BGS and police who I showed the Sumpftarn jacket to, agreed that it was most likely police. He doubted, that it was BGS. He has been wrong on some things, but I mention it as another opinion. To note, my BGS jacket (1959 dated) has tan pocket flap lining, so not all are green/grey.

            There is much misinformation about the BGS jackets circulated, most I think repeat errors of the Peterson book. For example, the Sumpftarn smocks are misrepresented 1st model jacket or experimental, but were actually worn separate garment until at least end of 1960s as type of "Windbluse" over Dienstanzug. So far I know, the first model BGS jacket is the type shown here as BGS, the only difference of prototype/ early production is lack of shoulderboards.

            Regards
            Klaus

            Comment

              #7
              The older Einsatz uniform is the closest I've seen to the mystery (presumed S-H) Sumpftarn jacket. I have a variety of 1960s and 1970s Einsatz uniforms from various Polizei forces. None of them look like the S-H type that I have. And you say someone has a picture of S-H wearing similar uniforms from much earlier times? Well, I think that makes the case more solid that the mystery jacket is S-H.

              What I would love to do is find a 1950s or early 1960s S-H Einsatz uniform to compare against the two that I have. That could clear up any remaining questions.

              As for the BGS jacket, many years ago (15?) I tried to correct Peterson's identification mistakes because he only identified one smock and one jacket, yet in my hands I had two smocks and 3 jackets. I labeled them as such:

              1st Model Smock -> 4 pockets (identical to earlier Splittertarn type)
              2nd Model Smock -> 2 pockets (I presume this came later)

              1st Model Jacket -> the mystery type we are discussing here
              2nd Model Jacket -> no arm pocket (as pictured in this thread)
              3rd Model Jacket -> with arm pocket

              Based on the new analysis I think I made an error and instead think they are like this:

              1st Model Smock -> 4 pockets (identical to earlier Splittertarn type)
              2nd Model Smock -> 2 pockets (I presume this came later)

              1st Model Jacket -> no arm pocket (as pictured in this thread) and buttons for hood
              2nd Model Jacket -> with arm pocket and no buttons for hood


              Not directly related to this thread, there are some "significant" differences within the 1st Model and 2nd Model Jacket production:

              1a = no provisions for rank
              1b = loops and buttons for shoulder rank

              2a = loops for narrow strap (original) shoulder rank
              2b = loops for wide strap (new) shoulder rank

              In my hands I now have:

              4x 1st Model Jacket (a 5th is due here any day now)
              6x 2nd Model Jacket
              3x trousers
              2x parka

              I probably had 12+ additional 2nd Model Jacket, at least 2 more trousers, and a couple of parkas in my hands that I purchased for resale, trade, or upgrading. Based on the pieces I have had in my hands and pictures of others (dozens!), I have found the following differences:

              The 1st Model has either grayblue or tan pocket flap interiors, some are unstamped, and many earlier types were converted to accept shoulder rank. Note that trousers also have grayblue or tan interior pieces.

              The 2nd Model also has some variations. The 1967 type uses a "post" type snap for the arm pockets, the colors changed sometime after 1969? (some jackets use both types of cloth), 1967-1972? did not originally have Bundesgrenzschutz arcs, many of the earlier jackets have the arcs added later, there are at least 3 types of eagle badges including a camouflage backed one, and probably some other minor differences I am forgetting.

              There are also minor differences in the 1967 parka and later types, but that is not important for this thread

              Steve

              Comment

                #8
                Something that speak for possibility of camo uniforms in S-H is, that S-H actually attempted to obtain combatant status for Bereitschaftspolizei like for BGS, but this was rejected 1963 after questionable legality and opposition of further police militarisation from the GdP. I have not heard of attempts from other Länder to this.

                A book of interest would be "Geschichte der Polizei in Schleswig-Holstein" (1978) by Gerd Stolz. Will try to obtain copy sometime. Not sure, if it would answer any questions.

                As I have mentioned, for smocks, I prefer terms 1st model for Splittertarn and 2nd model for Sumpftarn. Not sure, where 2-pocket version fit in, until documentation can be found, so it is left out. The Sumpftarn is clearly in purpose as winter "wind jacket" meant to replace Splittertarn (probably to make all camo uniforms same pattern). Because it mainly used in winter but not reversible, this is probably why most photos of it appear from 1960s and Splittertarn was preferred for as long as possible after its introduction.

                Regards
                Klaus

                Comment

                Previous template Next

                Users Viewing this Thread

                Collapse

                There are currently 2 users online. 0 members and 2 guests.

                Most users ever online was 10,032 at 08:13 PM on 09-28-2024.

                Working...
                X